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Jkrew81

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Hey all,
Hope everyone had a good New Years weekend. So I spent my New Years Eve climbing up Watchusett and skiing down with my girlfriend which was a blast. I know all of you are probably cringing at the location but it is close by and they were open till midnight with fireworks, so it was a fun night out. So I think both of us have caught the "earn your turns" bug now and we want to try some bigger stuff. As it would have it we both need new alpine boots and I was wondering if there was anything out there relatively comfortable to hike in for moderate distances. I know you are probably all going to say get backcountry gear, but that is just not in the cards this winter. So does anyone have any ideas for comfortable walk-able alpine boots, or is there no such thing?
 
Jkrew81 said:
Hey all,
Hope everyone had a good New Years weekend. So I spent my New Years Eve climbing up Watchusett and skiing down with my girlfriend which was a blast. I know all of you are probably cringing at the location but it is close by and they were open till midnight with fireworks, so it was a fun night out.
Not Cringing at all :)
Wachusett is a great mountain and recreation area. When we lived in Sterling, Wachusett was 10 minutes away and I had a lot of fun skiing up and down the roads (along with all the other locals) at night!!!
 
Jkrew81 said:
As it would have it we both need new alpine boots and I was wondering if there was anything out there relatively comfortable to hike in for moderate distances. I know you are probably all going to say get backcountry gear, but that is just not in the cards this winter. So does anyone have any ideas for comfortable walk-able alpine boots, or is there no such thing?
I doubt that you will find any (modern) alpine boots that are much good for walking/hiking. AT (alpine touring, randonee) boots might be ok, but that is a different set of bindings etc.

The lower Tele boots and BC boots are walkable. The bigger Tele boots become somewhat awkward to walk in, although not as bad as alpine. (There is essentially a continuium between BC (light end) and Tele (heavy end) gear.

I've seen people hike up in hiking boots and change into alpine boots for the descent.

Doug
 
If you are looking to hike or skin fairly often you should definately look into AT gear. You can get a setup that is good for lift served skiing as well as climbing for turns. Alpine ski boots are simply not designed for hiking. Some boots may still have the (hike/walk) switch that were popular in the 90's but they went out of favor a while ago I believe.

-dave-
 
David Metsky said:
Some boots may still have the (hike/walk) switch that were popular in the 90's but they went out of favor a while ago I believe.

-dave-

This is what I was thinking about. So am I correct in saying that you need AT specific bindings for AT boots? I was looking at a few pair of Garmont AT boots and they looked as though an alpine binding would fit on that. I am not really looking to start doing any touring, so I figured if I could get AT boots with my normal setup, that would be perfect.

Thanks for your feedback guys.
 
For what it sounds like you want, AT is without doubt the way to go. I bought a pair of Lowa Struktura from Sierra TP last year - $125. Did not get to use them due to a knee injury, but just returned from the ADK's where I used them ice climbing, skiing, & hiking & found them totally adequate. They will NOT fit alpine DH bindings, but I suspect you could get a good deal on last year's Diamir bindings on line.
 
Jkrew81 said:
So am I correct in saying that you need AT specific bindings for AT boots? I was looking at a few pair of Garmont AT boots and they looked as though an alpine binding would fit on that.
There are too many variables, the boots can be quite different. I'll let someone with experience take it from here. You might want to ask this question on TeleTips, despite the name there are lots of AT skiers there as well.

-dave-
 
Need an XC primer

Since this question is certainly not off-topic, would someone please identify two or three ski/binding/boot variations in each of the classes? I am familiar only with NNN- (or SNS-)style edgeless touring skis and lift-served downhill skis. Can someone clue us newbies in on the variations that include Back-Country, Alpine Touring, Randonee (same thing?), Telemark, and any that are missing/duplicated? Perhaps links to specific combinations?

I'd like to move from falling with my edgeless touring skis into actually making the turns with something more substantial. Perhaps I'd like to ski to Greeley Ponds. For that, I would need _________ (insert product example links here). A good junior-sized trainer for this outing would be ________ (insert tamer outing here).

I'd like to ski from Upper Works to Adirondack Loj, NOT hitting all the peaks in between, but just working the valley/hillside trails. For that, I would need _________ . A good junior-sized trainer for this outing would be ________.

I'd like to ski from the trailhead to Garfield summit and back. For that, I would need _________ . A good junior-sized trainer for this outing would be ________.

I wouldn't mind taking the occasional lift and then skiing off into the back-country (like, say into Perkins Notch from Wildcat). For that, I would need _________ . A good junior-sized trainer for this outing would be ________.

Hopefully, this is not an inappropriate use of this thread.

Thanks,

--M.
 
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Jkrew81 said:
Hey all,
Hope everyone had a good New Years weekend. So I spent my New Years Eve climbing up Watchusett and skiing down with my girlfriend which was a blast. I know all of you are probably cringing at the location but it is close by and they were open till midnight with fireworks, so it was a fun night out. So I think both of us have caught the "earn your turns" bug now and we want to try some bigger stuff. As it would have it we both need new alpine boots and I was wondering if there was anything out there relatively comfortable to hike in for moderate distances. I know you are probably all going to say get backcountry gear, but that is just not in the cards this winter. So does anyone have any ideas for comfortable walk-able alpine boots, or is there no such thing?

Sounds like you want to go the Alpine Ski Touring route.Garmont makes a WIDE array of AT boots.The Adrenalin has an interchangeable sole so the boot can work with both AT bindings and traditional downhill bindings. This is a very aggressive (Stiff) AT boot where many AT boots are not. Many AT boots get a bit sloppy for area skiing especially on hard pack. The Adrenaline works well inbounds and out because again it is stiff enough. If you are looking for a walking/skiing boot you can use with your existing gear you could use the Adrenaline and plug in some Alpine Trekkers and save a few bucks from going out and buying a full AT setup (Boots,Skiis,AT bindings); but down the road if you get the Adrenaline now you will have a boot that will work with both an AT binding for later and a boot for an alpine binding now.
 
I'll try and tackle some of the basics. Dave.M's site (not me, a the other Dave M :) ) is a great place to start.

There are basically three types of binding systems that come into play in the backcountry: NNN-BC or SNS-BC, 75mm (telemark), or AT/Randonee.

NNN-BC or SNS-BC - These are fairly lightweight binding systems, based on (but incompatible with) the basic XC systems from NNN or SNS. These bindings have a metal bar in front of toe of the boot and a series of interconnected ridges on the boot soles and bindings. These are excellent for kick and glide and snowplowing, but are overclassed when attempting telemark turns. The boots available are much more touring oriented, there are no plastic boots like you find with telemark. They are best used for backcountry touring mated with metal-edged touring skis like the E99 or Karhu XCD GT, up to wider skis like the Fischer SBound series.

75mm three pin (telemark) - There is a wide range of weights of 75mm bindings and boots, that can range from light touring to the steepest lift-served or backcountry terrain. The binding originated with 3 metal pins to lock the boot in the binding but many current bindings don't use the pins, relying on a cable that runs behind the heel to keep the boot in place. There are also a wide range of boots available, from low leathers to stiff, aggressive plastics. Some combinations (Garmont Excursions, Fischer Sbounds, Volie 3-pins) are fine for most touring, allowing the user a bit more control for turns than the NNN-BCs at the expense of a bit more weight. Heavier combinations (Scarpa T1, G3 Reverend, Hammerhead Bindings) can take you down anything a ski area can offer and much beyond, but are extremely heavy and unwiedly for any type of touring. Lots more can be said here. Some of the beefiest bindings offer releasability.

AT/Randonee - Alpine Touring (also called Randonee) operates as a free heel binding for climbing with skins and then locks down the heels for descending like an alpine ski. They are extremely popular in Europe for backcounty trips. There are some incompatible combinations as new bindings and boots are introduced. AT isn't great as a rolling touring setup, but it works best for steady climbing followed by steady descents. The bindings over the ability to release on descent which is important safety feature.

Alpine Trekker - This is a binding that you can drop into an alpine ski binding and use to simulate AT. It's a compromise that allows an alpine skier to sample AT skiing without buying new skis or boots. Since alpine boots aren't designed for touring this is a compromise and really doesn't do anything very well, but will get you out there.

I'll try and rundown the situations you posted:

Greeley Ponds - This is very basic backcountry skiing. From the WV side all you need is metal edged skis. NNN-BC or 75mm bindings will work fine with a touring setup. You can wax or use waxless skis to climb to the ponds, and all you need to get down is a decent snowplow.

Upper Works to the Loj - Can someone who knows the Daks reply here?

Garfield - I'd recommend beefy telemark or AT gear for this trip. The upper sections require fairly quick turns and the ability to adapt to changing terrain on and off the trail. I've done it on lighter backcountry gear and while it's possible it's not as enjoyable.

Lift Served and beyond - Wildcat Valley trail is probably not the best example, as that is pretty much a tour except for the first 1/2 mile. It can be done on anything from light touring gear to AT, depending on skill level and snow conditions. If you want to ski lifts you'll want at least medium stiff plastic tele boots (T3, T2, Syner-G) combined with cable bindings or AT.

There are lots of variables, lots of opinions, and new gear being introduced all the time. What works for some folks may be overkill or hopelessly inadequate for others. It's hard to make blanket statements about what is needed or even appropriate for a given trip. Try stuff, rent, demo, borrow, and see what works for you.

-dave-
 
Yaayyyy: Like landing a trout!

Muhuhahahaaaa, I got exactly the answers I was looking for! Nothing like getting precisely what you want. Aahh HAA ha ha ha ha haaaa.

There, had to say that.

Thanks, Dave.

While I'm at it, though, I have to SNAP loudly for the winter use of the "TRAIL CONDITIONS" section of this site. It provides all this info on specific hikes that real people have done. Awesome. (Could use some more skiing in the reports, though!)

Lastly, thanks for the tip on (the other) Dave's ski site. It's also spot-on for new-kid advice. Great stuff.

--M.
 
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Upper Works to the Loj - Can someone who knows the Daks reply here?

Upper Works to the Loj is kick and glide most of the way. The exception is the stretch between Avalanche Lake and Avalanche Camps lean-to. This section drops perhaps 700-800 feet over the course of a mile or so. If you can manage a good snow plow you can do this on standard x-country gear, having metal edges makes this little downhill run a lot of fun.

Bob
 
What I learned in Touring School today

School of hard knocks, of course.

I've been reading this book on xc ("Cross-country skiing," Ned Gillette, John Dostal, found, yes, at the public library), and discovered that being an old and mediocre downhill skier predisposed me to having difficulty turning a skinny, edgeless touring ski.

I learned today to carve some real, actual turns, by learning to shift my weight around on one ski, lifting the inside one and skidding the outside one around to the left or right. It was a revelation! I think I may actually be able to get into the Pemi without killing myself after all. By the time I was done, I was combining plows, christies and even a couple of parallels while avoiding impaling myself on the local hardwoods.

Took one cartwheel and two butt-falls. No injuries.

Thought you should know.

--M.
 
--M. said:
I've been reading this book on xc ("Cross-country skiing," Ned Gillette, John Dostal, found, yes, at the public library), and discovered that being an old and mediocre downhill skier predisposed me to having difficulty turning a skinny, edgeless touring ski.
A classic by 2 experts.

I learned today to carve some real, actual turns, by learning to shift my weight around on one ski, lifting the inside one and skidding the outside one around to the left or right. It was a revelation! I think I may actually be able to get into the Pemi without killing myself after all. By the time I was done, I was combining plows, christies and even a couple of parallels while avoiding impaling myself on the local hardwoods.
Congrats!

Basic XC skiing isn't hard--we take the students in the AMC basic XC workshop from a fresh start through kick-and-glide to plows, plow turns, and, if they are up to it, stem christies and parallel turns all within 3 hours. (Of course, it usually takes a little longer to get good at it.) Those with DH experience sometimes find the turns easier than the basic kick-and-glide.

Plows, stem christies, and parallels are pretty much the same as on DH skis. The biggest differences are:
* the XC boot is mounted with the pin line (just forward of one's toes) mounted on the center of the ski vs the center of the DH boot mounted on the center of the ski
* the loose XC heel does not allow you to press the ski tip into the snow as one can with locked heel gear
* many XC skis are double camber and harder to turn than single camber Tele or DH skis.

An efficient kick and glide is a subtle art. It might take a while to get good at it.

Took one cartwheel and two butt-falls. No injuries.
Just part of the learning experience. :)

Doug
 
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DougPaul said:
Plows, stem christies, and parallels are pretty much the same as on DH skis.

Well, for some, yes. But if you ski downhill in [what turns out to be] sloppy misuse of the ski, letting the edge do all the work, you end up learning things you then have to unlearn in order to function on the edgeless touring skis. I topped out at single black diamonds because I hadn't mastered the real moves.

In carving a turn, for example, Gillette & Dostol say "No longer can you 'cheat' while turning and get away with it because of the stable holding power of alpine equipment." (3rd ed., p90).

They're right: I now had to keep a mantra going to remember things that hadn't been true in my downhill skiing. Also, when you're going 20 or 25 mph on skinny skis, there's not a lot of excess mental energy left over for complicated instruction. I just kept saying "hands out front, weight over the bindings, plant the pole, keep shuffling" over & over again through the run. If I had been on my heavy downhills, it would have been boring.

If I'm now learning methods more in tune with the real environment, a return to downhill would find me a much better skier. If I had learned touring first, I would have then been a much better downhiller.

It was fun learning new tricks as an aging dog.

--M.
 
--M. said:
In carving a turn, for example, Gillette & Dostol say "No longer can you 'cheat' while turning and get away with it because of the stable holding power of alpine equipment." (3rd ed., p90).

If I'm now learning methods more in tune with the real environment, a return to downhill would find me a much better skier. If I had learned touring first, I would have then been a much better downhiller.
People who do both XC and DH have told me that each improves the other.

Double camber XC skis don't carve turns well (they don't flex into a nice smooth reverse camber)--you end up skidding most of them. A Tele ski does because it has a single camber. Many BC skis are somewhere in between (eg. camber and a half). A light tele ski can also be a decent BC ski.

Yep, edges help on hardpack--all of my current BC skis have full edges, but I did start on lignostone (compressed impregnated wood) edges.

You might find DH and XC to lead in the direction of Tele. All the parallel turns plus the Tele turn. And with the loose heel, you can't "cheat" either. With tele gear, you can use XC waxes to kick-and-glide in, put on your skins and climb, pop the skins and make some turns, and XC back to the car.

It was fun learning new tricks as an aging dog.
Arf! Same here--I added Tele to XC-BC several years ago.

It's all good.

Doug
 
--M. said:
If I'm now learning methods more in tune with the real environment, a return to downhill would find me a much better skier. If I had learned touring first, I would have then been a much better downhiller.

M, since you were able to find Gillette and Dostal (one of my all time favorite reads), you might also turn google loose and see if you can find an old copy of Steve Barnett's "Cross-Country Downhill", especially if you are interested in skiing on skinny double cambered sticks.

I've found that modern tele techniques learned on tall plastic boots and mid fat alpine style skis (waists above 75mm) have a dual character to them when returning to light gear. They do help. I could never have figured out the tele turn without attending Dickie Hall's clinics and the bigger gear has allowed me to learn much faster while riding lifts.
http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/trip-reports/nato-01.txt

But, there is a real limitation imo too. More precisely, modern tele turns with shaped skis rely on a closed stance and turn initiations based more on edge changes, or a slight skid through the top of the turn. This works fine with fatter and flatter cambered skis. But with skinnier skis and as camber increases, this is a recipe for catching edges. Skinnier skis really force me to initiate turns or movements with a 1-2 cadence. More one foot then the other. Barnett really keys in on using mobility and quick feet to compensate for the lack of support of the lighter gear, which is why I suggest reading him. For me, the threshold is my 80/60/70 skis. In perfect conditions I can ski them the modern way. In tricky conditions, its 1-2. With skinnier skis, its all 1-2.
 
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