ChrisB
Well-known member
These folks on Lafayette had "all the right equipment" until visibility went to zero.
Don't most cell phones have a compass app?
cb
Don't most cell phones have a compass app?
cb
First Winter Rescue Kicks Off Season
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JustJoe
Active member
Not wanting to assume anything but it doesn't mention a map. Unless they were extremely familiar with the Greenleaf Tr. and or their surroundings, just a compass wouldn't have helped a whole lot.
jfb
Active member
Maybe someone should build some more cairns on that section of the trail.
So if I am reading this correctly, the rescuers used GPS to locate the trail once they got to the pair?
ChrisB
Well-known member
When I read that I assumed they probably set a way point at the hut and then walked back to it from the summit or just used track-back to get down.
Tom Rankin
Well-known member
My phone has no built in compass, and it's almost brand new. My GPS app (Back Country Navigator) will make an attempt to tell me what direction I am going, in spite of that.
I've (almost) been in their shoes. The only difference was that it was dead calm, but we could not find the cairns easily for quite some time, in thick fog. Even though they are quite large, in the Winter, they do not look like cairns. We would have 1 person stay at a cairn and the other strike out in the hopeful direction until they located the next cairn. This worked well enough in the fog, but with wind, it could have been a lot harder. Eventually, we encountered up hill hikers, and we able to follow their tracks below tree line. Again, these people did not have that advantage, until rescuers arrived.
I've (almost) been in their shoes. The only difference was that it was dead calm, but we could not find the cairns easily for quite some time, in thick fog. Even though they are quite large, in the Winter, they do not look like cairns. We would have 1 person stay at a cairn and the other strike out in the hopeful direction until they located the next cairn. This worked well enough in the fog, but with wind, it could have been a lot harder. Eventually, we encountered up hill hikers, and we able to follow their tracks below tree line. Again, these people did not have that advantage, until rescuers arrived.
ChrisB
Well-known member
Improved Winter Trail Marking
Interesting idea that got me thinking...
Might it be good for F&G to wand some of the more popular trails where winter rescues are common due to low visibility?
For example: Lafayette summit cone, Crawford Path exit into trees near Pierce, Ammo exit into trees near Lakes hut, etc. etc.
Wands could be placed and removed according to snow depth. Might save some lives an rescue $$.
Interesting idea that got me thinking...
Might it be good for F&G to wand some of the more popular trails where winter rescues are common due to low visibility?
For example: Lafayette summit cone, Crawford Path exit into trees near Pierce, Ammo exit into trees near Lakes hut, etc. etc.
Wands could be placed and removed according to snow depth. Might save some lives an rescue $$.
Hillwalker
Active member
Also Haystack summit down to Falling Waters trail. Which reminds me. Does any one remember the emergency bivy cache that used to be placed by the big boulder just after the Falling Waters trail enters the scrub off the Haystack summit? Around the early to mid eighties if I recall correctly.
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sierra
Well-known member
There has been talk in other groups about that area and putting in some kind of markers or additional signage. There have been many parties who have gotten in trouble in that very spot. Your idea of using wands is a very good one in my opinion. I remember doing Pierce once in the winter. The trail neat the WCT junction was non existent and I just made my own through the scrub, comin out above where the actual trail is. The next issue was the visibility was very low with extremely high winds. I was concerned about finding my way back into the scrub and my broken trail. So I took my poles about and made four wands. I tagged the summit then retrieved my pole sections on my descent. It was just enough to get me up and back.
DayTrip
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I noticed on the Ammo Trail SAT that there were several places higher up in the glade areas that had blue ribbons tied to the trees in key turn areas where people frequently go the wrong way. Not sure if this was an official action or an individual but it seemed to help. There wasn't nearly as many tracks splitting off in various directions on the way up other than that open area that always seems to draw people left when the trail takes a hard right. That turn had no blue flagging. I gave myself a pat on the back for knowing the correct route until I encountered arm pit deep snow drifts for about 50' until it emerged out on the spine of the ridge. 
CaptCaper
Active member
Never ending story on these summits. They're lucky. I remember the day the gal died years ago in a Whiteout up there. With her husband from Boston being lost then tired from trying to find a way down finally sat down for the night and died. He lived.
One fact then and still more so now is how a simple GPS tracking from the start of the day would of saved them and the one's this time. Of course you have to know how to use one. That is simple enough.
Wife and I each carry maps and compass as well as a GPS each plus I have a ResLink I take every where besides hiking. I'll use our gps's anyday in a Whiteout to get back down the way we came. I've done it many times since 1998 and saved my butt a few times. I would never use the phone for navigating. I stick with the gps to stay tuned and proficent. Wife loves to Geocache now while on the hikes.
One fact then and still more so now is how a simple GPS tracking from the start of the day would of saved them and the one's this time. Of course you have to know how to use one. That is simple enough.
Wife and I each carry maps and compass as well as a GPS each plus I have a ResLink I take every where besides hiking. I'll use our gps's anyday in a Whiteout to get back down the way we came. I've done it many times since 1998 and saved my butt a few times. I would never use the phone for navigating. I stick with the gps to stay tuned and proficent. Wife loves to Geocache now while on the hikes.
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Ribboning has been frowned upon by the LNT crowd for years. The problem has mostly been on bushwacks. The practice is just garbage in many ways. Wether it’s wanding or ribboning that’s your option. Do it yourself and remove it on the way down. Next thing you know it will be expected that the Forest Service should be fixing lines and bootpacking out the a Major routes. Learn the craft and the skill sets to survive without littering up the experience.I noticed on the Ammo Trail SAT that there were several places higher up in the glade areas that had blue ribbons tied to the trees in key turn areas where people frequently go the wrong way. Not sure if this was an official action or an individual but it seemed to help. There wasn't nearly as many tracks splitting off in various directions on the way up other than that open area that always seems to draw people left when the trail takes a hard right. That turn had no blue flagging. I gave myself a pat on the back for knowing the correct route until I encountered arm pit deep snow drifts for about 50' until it emerged out on the spine of the ridge.
DayTrip
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That's why I found it curious. Was only three or four spots and I noticed they all coincided with little arrow signs that were basically invisible without your eye being drawn to the ribbon. Ribbon was same color as blazes too (blue) not an obvious tagging color like orange, etc. That is why I was wondering if it was an official effort.
ChrisB
Well-known member
I get what you're saying SkiGuy.
I'm just thinking of those poor F&G dudes who had to slog to the summit of Lafayette, at night, in zero viz, to pull these folks off.
Maybe the answer is better way finding with bigger/more frequent rock cairns in some of these obscure areas. As I recall, many of the ones on Lafayette are only knee-high and often buried. Of course there's nothing like a good compass bearing scribed onto your map to get you in the general Greenleaf neighborhood in IFR condx .
I’m not sure who’s responsibility that trail corridor is for trail maintenance. But taller cairns is a good idea. Seems like being just above a Hut the AMC with all their effort would have done this already.
Is it a problem to bring some fallen sticks up the trail and place them in the snow?
Tom Rankin
Well-known member
No, but that is only a temporary solution. They will rot, or blow away, or fall over.
We actually brought wands when we went above tree line for Katahdin a few years ago, but we were coming back the way we started, and we took them with us when we descended.
Mike P.
Well-known member
While in good weather, I can see going either way on the loop, in winter or any poor weather, I prefer doing Lafayette first. You can stop at the hut and assess the conditions ahead as you can or can not see the summit a mile away. Decide on conditions, then you can go through the trees and reassess the weather again. If the weather is good, you continue, if the weather changes while somewhere on the ridge, it's easier finding the Falling Waters Trail from Little Haystack and getting into the trees. In most cases, the wind & weather will be on your back or side which is preferable to going into it. Hikers seem to prefer going forward than turning back.
The Greenleaf trail up high has several turns and getting back into the trees in the right spot. Getting into tree cover either on the falling waters trail or staying on the ridge if unable to find Falling Waters and entering the trees and trying to maintain the ridge will put you in the trees on the Franconia Ridge Trail between Falling Waters and Liberty. (This section of FRT in winter is less likely to be broken out and it will drift in sooner so snowshoes are a necessity.)
The Greenleaf trail up high has several turns and getting back into the trees in the right spot. Getting into tree cover either on the falling waters trail or staying on the ridge if unable to find Falling Waters and entering the trees and trying to maintain the ridge will put you in the trees on the Franconia Ridge Trail between Falling Waters and Liberty. (This section of FRT in winter is less likely to be broken out and it will drift in sooner so snowshoes are a necessity.)
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