Any hikers carry IceScrews?

[iceNsnow]

Last year I ran into a bit of trouble while attempting to climb Saddleback from Basin. (Fortunately a couple of strong men were not far behind and assisted me up the icy ledge!! Thanks again!)

This year I expect that the ice has set in even earlier and I hope to succeed again in summitting Saddleback from Basin. My thought is to bring a couple of ice screws for just that little bit of lift or leverage that I need to pull myself up onto that ledge.

Would I be able to insert the screws w/o much effort? Are special tools needed? What type/size should I bring?

If this is a totally stupid idea, it isn't my first and don't hesitate to let me know.

And if you can offer me any other ideas that would guarantee making this maneuver, I'd greatly consider all solutions. (I will most likely be alone again, so the option of being powerlifted isn't viable.)

Thanks for your considerations -
Inge

 

[cushetunk]

This seems like what an ice axe and crampons were designed for. Maybe stick to those first?

Although, I get kind of nervous when I am alone and scrambling up icy ledges with an axe. Makes me wonder, should I be doing this? How will I get back down?

 

[iceNsnow]

It's a one way route

Thanks for the reply, cushetunk!
I had crampons and an ice ax, but the step I needed to make was just a weeeeeeeee bit too big.
Of course I would use the crampons and ax still, I just needed to fabricate a secure point to anchor off to get the necessary boost.

Did you ever use ice screws?

 

[cushetunk]

I am not real familiar with ice screws... though I have seconded ice routes with friends and removed them. Others may disagree, but my sense is they would be annoying for hiking. Especially since you'd need to somehow remove them after you were boosted.

I figured you probably had an axe, but thought I would cover the bases. How about this though: have you ever tried cutting steps with the adze on the ice axe? That might be another way to get a step. If you could get an ice screw in you could probably cut steps, and it'd be fast after some practice. Heck, this is how people first got up Pinnacle Gully. And Everest, I think.

All said, though, I should point out that I've never been to this spot. I'll now disappear and let people with real knowledge contribute!

 

[DougPaul]

Sounds to me like a decent mountaineering axe or axe and ice hammer is more what you need. Get some instruction in basic ice climbing techniques to learn how to use them (both flat footing (French technique) and front pointing (Austrian technique).

A good book on ice climbing might be a good place to start.

Doug
ex-ice climber and ice screw owner

 

[iceNsnow]

I guess I should explain better

The route is snow until a relatively small ledge that has a thin crust of ice. The ledge has a slope with marginal ice/snow .
There is typically not enough ice to cut steps or use front points.
Probably a peice of rock climbing protection would really be more suitable?!

Which begs the question of whether the trail workers would consider some type of pro since no ladder has ever been installed here???

I guess I too will patiently await some Adirondack Experts - ones w/o big muscles... --- PinpinJr's friend has helped me in times past,

 

[AMF]

If its a relatively thin crust of ice, as you say, an ice screw would be of little use.

 

[cbcbd]

There is typically not enough ice to cut steps or use front points.
Probably a peice of rock climbing protection would really be more suitable?!

The shortest screw you will find is 10cm (3.9") long, which still doesn't sound shallow enough for the ice you're talking about. Driving them into rocks is also just going to ruin the points and make them harder to place subsequent times. And at $50+, ice screws are pretty expensive to keep ruining.

Rock protection is another route but unless you have a collection of pieces to fit whatever rock you might find, if you find any rock, then it'll do you no good.

I agree with DougPaul in saying that maybe a climbing/mountaineering class would teach some helpful technique.

 

[cushetunk]

I couldn't stay away long...

From your description, this is one of those ledges that is just a real pain.

I think this is where an ice axe can really shine for eastern climbing... being able to reach up higher and sink it into thicker ice, or hook a tree or something along those lines. If you've got a long wrist loop then you have a good handhold, and you can move your feet fast like Scooby Doo as you front point and scratch your way up the thin ice. Have you considered bringing a second long axe?

And with rock pro, you will face some trouble using it. Would it anchor a loop for your foot? That might be tough while wearing crampons. If it is for a handhold you can probably just use the rock feature as a handhold, without bothering with pro. And, no matter what, you'd still have to remove your pro somehow once you are on top of the ledge.

 

[blacklab2020]

i have never seen the ice thick enough to warrant a screw there... ice axe is the way to go and check out the link below for pics... if the rock is clean you may be able to walk up it, if not I would steer clear of the standard route up saddleback and stick to the left corner

the rope in the pics was only used for hauling packs

http://outdoors.webshots.com/album/540626702zZxwWu?start=48

 

[iceNsnow]

Scooby on Saddleback's Ledge

ooooooh that ledge is just a pain, like cushetunk says!!
I am not talking about the standard route up the cliffs of Saddleback but the side route with that nasty little ledge.
My hope was just a little something to give me a bit of additional height to hoist myself up to the other stable hand and foot holds.

That Scooby Doo footwork idea makes me laugh!!!
I tried something like that last time but there is crevice that is just too big to use foot jams......... ahhhhhh I will try and try again!!

 

[TCD]

Inge,

I agree with some previous posters. It's climbing technique, and climbing equipment, that will get you up a ledge like that one. Definitely buy and read Chouinard's "Climbing Ice." Full crampons and a mountainering axe should handle most Adirondack trails; as DougPaul mentioned, there may be a couple spots where a second tool (usually a short hammer that you can carry on your pack) can be a help.

Ice screws are more "protection gear" than they are "climbing gear." They are really intended for use on a roped climb, to catch a fall (although some data suggests that they aren't too good for that, either, which is a little nerve wracking!). I haven't heard of very many cases of "solo-aid" using screws, and I don't think I would recommend it.

Another thing to look at on Saddleback is route finding. Yes, there's a summer trail; but there are a bunch of ways up and down that side of the mountain, and there may be an easy way to avoid the problem ledge.

Tom

 

[iceNsnow]

Thanks Tom!

I am always looking for good mountaineering books to read. Thanks for the recommendation!

I realize that my thought was to use an ice screw in an unconventional method. After climbing Saddleback from many different approaches, my dilema is that I want to descend from Basin to Saddleback. The winter route is fine, but with excessive ice it severely challenged me last year and I wanted to go back w/ more tricks/tools in my pack.

Thanks again for the recommendations!
Any one(especially strong and agile ) also interested in climbing this route in the near future?

 

[mtn.goat]

As was stated earlier an ice screw will be useless as I highly doubt there will be enough ice to use it. I did the N Face of Gothics (an alpine climbing route with snow and ice) last year and we only used screws twice on the entire route.

 

[randomscooter]

I'm guessing you are referring to the corner that exits almost directly below the summit? That is Alain's usual ascent route. Since you are as tall as he I would imagine you could make the same move - get as high as possible on the rocks then whack in the ice ax over the top and into the iceNsnow/turf, then pull up over with it. Not a comfy move, and one I've never done alone.

Last winter I looked around a bit as I belayed/encouraged others - Alain of course led (although I take credit for an assist from below!), then belayed me, then I took over the belay - over this ledge and noticed what might be a useful crack high on the right side of the corner. Can't remember (sorry) exactly if it was simply a good handhold or possibly a good crack for rock pro, and never did stop there this summer on several trips past to investigate in more detail.

The only time I've done this spot solo was my first winter ascent of Habasa. On that occasion I used crampons and ice ax to ascend the ice flow that is directly to the left of the corner. The condition of that ice flow varies enough not to be relied on, I was probably lucky that day (not to mention desperate ).

If you do place pro you can secure a webbing ladder around the bushes above using a 'biner and easily descend back to retrieve the pro, then reclimb the ladder. I've still got the one I fabricated last winter - it's a total of 15' long, half of which has foot/hand loops and the other half just a single webbing to reach the bush.!

 

[percious]

Two tools

If you are anything like me, you may just be looking for an excuse to buy more toys. I completely understand. Anyway, I would think a second tool would get you up the section you described right quick. Keep in mind that "mountaineering" style axes have a different shaped head that is much harder to retrieve from the ice once it is securely placed.
Here is an inexpensive solution: http://www.monstermarketplace.com/Sports/Landing1028a977.html

I have a couple of these axes, and they are decent for snow gullies and short pitches of ice, but I wouldn't trust them to anything more than that. I broke the head off one of them after some heavy use. I think the problem was that I did not have the bolts tight enough, and that is what omega also concluded after their investigation.... I digress.

If you want to "play" with an ice screw I honestly would not hesitate to grab one off ebay. They can be had for <$40. I wouldn't take a "used" screw on lead, but for yarding on to pull up my body weight, fo sho. Sounds like the ice is going to be too thin for what you are trying to do, but you can always sell it back if it isn't what you expect.

Whatever you do be careful out there! An injury in at that spot in the backcountry could be devastating for you and your would-be rescuers. Maybe take an ice climbing lesson from a seasoned professional and rent the gear to see what it is really like instead of doing a 10 ft. pitch with considerable risk in the back country.

Oh, and about rock gear. cbdbd is right that you are unlikely to have the right piece of gear for the particular spot in the rock, but remember the premise of this post is that we like to play with things... So OP (damn, I swear I am not a salesman, or associated with OP in any way) makes a cam called the link cam which covers a much broader range of placements: http://www.omegapac.com/linkcam1.html

Problem is this. First off, you have to have some knowledge on how to put in a piece of rock gear. Secondly, you are probably going to be roped up to be putting it in. Which means A) you have to know how to tie a rope-harness(consult Freedom of the Hills) or B) you have to bring a Harness. Oh, and having a partner to belay you up is probably also important... Either way, a backcountry situation is not a good place to learn these skills. So, you are spending all this money on ropes and cams just to get up one little ten foot section of ice...

Ok ok. So lets review: Toys are fun. (Mountain-style toys especially). Learning how to use them is expensive... Right. And the risks associated with climbing are not necessarily worth the rewards for someone just starting out.

All that said. A second tool will probably do the trick. That, and a second person to go with.

-percious