Goretex XCR and Cotton

[percious]

I was reading the tag on the XCR jacket I got on closeout the other day and it said not to wear cotton underneath the XCR. I was wondering if anyone know what is the deal with this. Do they mean while exercising, since the increased moisure could cause the Goretex to de-laminate?

Is it possible that the cotton fibres could work their way into the micro-pores, thus rendering breathability null?

I ask because with all this rain we are having, I like to wear my jacket on top of my "street clothes" which are for the most part cotton.

cheers!

-percious

 

[Halite]

OMG! you wear cotton? You're crazy! (joking).

I'm just guessing, but it's probably because the cotton would tend to absorb water and not let it pass through the goretex membrane. I doubt it's something that would render your warranty invalid. More of a warning to prevent people from getting disappointed in the performance of their high-priced gear.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I have no idea why that tag would have that info. Am not a chemist, but from what I've read the permeability of the Goretex membrane is dependent upon temperature, and below a certain temperature (IIRC, about 25F) water vapor ceases to pass thru.

I don't think what you're wearing has anything to do with how much you sweat. In other words, you sweat the same whether the shirt is made of cotton or synthetics.

And I've learned that in arid climates the rate of evaporation in warm weather is so fast that most hikers wear cotton. It's more comfortable.

 

[giggy]

I would give WL gore a call

 

[Tom Rankin]

I don't think what you're wearing has anything to do with how much you sweat. In other words, you sweat the same whether the shirt is made of cotton or synthetics.

Maybe you didn't mean that in an absolute sense, but if what you're wearing causes you to overheat, you'll sweat.

That's why I try to hike with only enough layers on so that I feel slightly cool. Of course, if I really did that, I have to go naked a large part of the year!

 

[Jeff-B]

Cotton under XCR

I have researched this quite in depth with material data information provided by WL Gore, Inc. directly. The information sent was extensive and explained the "do's and don'ts" specific to thier products. I have also had in-depth conversations with Gore representatives who explained quite well the importance of correct clothing underlayers for thier products to perform.

Simple explanation:
All Goretex membranes require thermal transport of moisture to escape, which actually dries out, from the inside out, as you are active. This thermal transport is critical to keeping the shell dry.
Stand still longer enough and you may get wet, but get active and you will dry.
Cotton will retain moisture and cause the thermal transport of moisture to shut down, hence become wetter and then colder.
I find this true for wearing the shell with a single cotton layer, even if not sweating a lot.
Synthetics will allow moisture to pass through, then stay dry, while the Goretex then allows this moisture to pass as well.

About the durability:
XCR comes in two and three layer laminates.
2L XCR requires either a mesh lining built into the jacket, or, smooth non abrasive fabric shirts to be worn. Cotton is considered abrasive, silk is not.

3L XCR does not require any liner, nor special clothing to wear for durability considerations. 3L XCR is the strongest Goretex fabric ever made and perhaps the strongest, waterproof, breathable material in the world.
Only the best mountaineering jackets use 3L XCR and expect to pay a premium for this.


Jeff

 

[dreamstream]

I have a 3 ply XCR paddling drysuit top, If I wear a cotton tee shirt it is soaked in an hour, but with synthetic suit liner it is only moist after a day of paddling. Also found the same thing with bib pants, been out skiing all day at -10F with just the XCR pants, quick dry pants and light poly pro, worked great, but found cotton flanel underwear under the XCR got damp and cold on a much warmer day.

 

[percious]

I have researched this quite in depth with material data information provided by WL Gore, Inc. directly. The information sent was extensive and explained the "do's and don'ts" specific to thier products. I have also had in-depth conversations with Gore representatives who explained quite well the importance of correct clothing underlayers for thier products to perform.

Simple explanation:
All Goretex membranes require thermal transport of moisture to escape, which actually dries out, from the inside out, as you are active. This thermal transport is critical to keeping the shell dry.
Stand still longer enough and you may get wet, but get active and you will dry.
Cotton will retain moisture and cause the thermal transport of moisture to shut down, hence become wetter and then colder.
I find this true for wearing the shell with a single cotton layer, even if not sweating a lot.
Synthetics will allow moisture to pass through, then stay dry, while the Goretex then allows this moisture to pass as well.

About the durability:
XCR comes in two and three layer laminates.
2L XCR requires either a mesh lining built into the jacket, or, smooth non abrasive fabric shirts to be worn. Cotton is considered abrasive, silk is not.

3L XCR does not require any liner, nor special clothing to wear for durability considerations. 3L XCR is the strongest Goretex fabric ever made and perhaps the strongest, waterproof, breathable material in the world.
Only the best mountaineering jackets use 3L XCR and expect to pay a premium for this.


Jeff

Thanks Jeff. Excellent explaination. So, if I dont want my 2L XCR to wear out, don't wear cotton under it, period.

-percious

 

[Jeff-B]

Thanks Jeff. Excellent explaination. So, if I dont want my 2L XCR to wear out, don't wear cotton under it, period.

-percious

Make sure you understand which type of XCR fabric you have.

3 Layer XCR

2 Layer XCR

The 2 Layer XCR inner liner is "free floating" added per garment manufacturer and is designed to keep the Goretex membrane protected from chafe.

The 3 Layer XCR inner layer is laminted by Goretex Industries and is impossible to delaminate, adds structural integrity to seams and surface wear which makes the difference for durability.

For 3L XCR: If wearing cotton, the inadequate moisture transport dynamics will only affect performance for staying dry, but not damage the Goretex itself.

Jeff

 

[cushetunk]

What about wool? Like, those old scratchy lumberjack shirts, or a thick Norwegian sweater? Not quite cotton, not quite synthetic, in its properties.

 

[Jeff-B]

What about wool? Like, those old scratchy lumberjack shirts, or a thick Norwegian sweater? Not quite cotton, not quite synthetic, in its properties.

I use marino wool underlayers, but these are thin and smooth, tight stretch fitting. I almost never sweat in these when worn in very cold rains, so no problem with retaining moisture. These feel the best to me comfort wise rather than synthetics. Wool also stays warm when wet, if I let it get that far.

But I think for thermal moisture transport, synthetics, like polypro and similar wicking layers work best with Goretex, or most other "breathable" membrane shells.

The key for staying dry in rain, even with the best shell, is to wear the bare minimum wicking layer you can stand to still remain comfortable, and not overheat.
This keeps skin/body temperature into "evaporative transport" where you generate just the right amount of heat to force the jacket to breathe.

If you are wearing too much, or too thick layers, this moisture will collect at your skin, you sweat, then get cloths wet, then the thermal transport starts to shut down.
Simple fix, change to a thinner new base layer. The shell can recover and continue to keep you dry.

As far as "scratchy" materials go, don't used on naked 2L XCR.

Jeff

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Maybe you didn't mean that in an absolute sense, but if what you're wearing causes you to overheat, you'll sweat.

That's why I try to hike with only enough layers on so that I feel slightly cool. Of course, if I really did that, I have to go naked a large part of the year!

You're right, Tom. I could have phrased that better. My point was that you'll sweat the same wearing either a cotton tee or a synthetic tee, assuming they're of equivalant thickness.