Hammered today in touring mode

[sardog1]

Some of you with very long memories and not enough to do with your time may recall a Randonee(AT) vs Telemarking? thread back in late '05. That was one of the best threads here on the subject of backcountry binding systems, IMO. It deserves a visit if you're mulling your choices.

Said thread also included a promise from me to submit a field report on my as-yet-not-arrived HammerHead bindings. Well, a mere fifteen months later the day has arrived (after two winters of mostly inadequate snow, interference from other commitments, a twisted knee, the flu, blah, blah, blah.) And the result? "I love 'em!" And what's perhaps even more surprising to some of you fellow Nordic types -- I love 'em in touring mode!

I kept the spring tension today at the lightest setting (just short of no tension) to see what they'd do to my usually-free heel. No sweat -- really didn't notice anything onerous from the cable. That's in comparison to what I feel on another, lighter pair of skis with Rottefella SuperTelemarks mounted. (I have been a three-pin guy for a very, very long time.) Boot d'jour was Asolo Extreme (OMG, leather boots dating back to the Carter Administration??? ) Skis are a mint pair of Black Diamond Boundary (another ancient relic, but they're in as-new condition.

I really didn't have the sense of the binding being heavy on the uphill. The heel lifter worked great while climbing, helping to keep the tips up above today's @#$%^&*! soft crust by moving the balance point tailward.

A couple of caveats. I do think this is an arrangement better suited to larger, perhaps stronger skiers. If you have a smaller frame than I (6', 210#), you might notice the weight more. And those familiar with the HH binding will recognize its downhill capabilities, which merits a caution. There is no release here -- keep it in mind when picking a tension level that would facilitate steep descents. I plan to spend a lot of time practicing before I risk life and limb.

 

[David Metsky]

Hammerheads and leathers?! Get thee to some plastic boots, stat! Seriously, the leathers won't let you take advantage of what the HHs have to offer. T3/Excursions at a minimum, but they'll go much better with a pair of T2s or Syner-Gs. If you're going to carry that much weight, you might as well get some advantage of the control.

I wouldn't worry about the releasability unless you are planning serious lift service terrain. I have releasable Hardwires on my lift skis, but I've been on heavy gear for over a decade before deciding to go with them.

Congrats on the new binders, now get some better boots.

-dave-

 

[sardog1]

Nooo, I like my leathers. I realize it's an oddball combination, but it works for what I want. Better control than SuperTelemark w/o cable, but still light enough and flexible enough for a more Nordic sensation when gliding opportunities present themselves. EDIT: And a much stronger binding than some other riskier propositions sold for backcountry (mis)adventures. I know I'm not maximizing control, but I'm closer to optimal for what I do. And yes, down the (fall) line in the future, I can always heed that famous advice given to Benjamin Braddock:

Mr. McGuire: I want to say one word to you. Just one word.
Benjamin: Yes, sir.
Mr. McGuire: Are you listening?
Benjamin: Yes, I am.
Mr. McGuire: Plastics.

 

[Andrew]

Sounds like I tour similar to Sardog 1 and prefer staying with the leather boots also- despite hell and highwater.
I was just trying to explain this preference to a friend yesterday since he has a new NNN system he has not yet used and neither I, since I have stayed with my 75 mm and leather. For me I really enjoy the feeling of the snow through the softer boots and how the ski responds through all the flexibility and close pressure from my metetarsals (sp?), since this is what I have 'grown up with' in my skiing. For this same reason I have avoided any risers or spacer plates.
It's just what skiing is all about for me and I have found that I just adjust my choice of terrain and type of ski, according to the type of terrain and daily snow conditions and my anticipated ability.
Plastic 75mm is absolutely more appropriate as a ski mountaineering and essential for serious winter multi day and/or varying condition outings (especially glop!). And I am sure I can never ski as good or as challenging terrain that I could with plastic, and I own or have used various plastic boots. But I just would rather ski with the leather boots or do something else. As I was telling my friend, I'm sure that if you develop as a skier using plastic boots or a NNN setup, you would develop your own feel for the skiing that would be just as rewarding for you.
I also like the Rottafella Super Telemark and tend to leave the cable off my Voille 3 pin cables. The Hammerhead info is greatly appreciated as maybe I can reclaim some of the glory and terrain of youth while accomodating my inflexibility (or is that flexibility). I hate it when I'm told at a ski or sport shop when I ask if they have any Super Telemarks, "Oh those old things. I don't think we carry them anymore."

 

[DougPaul]

I also like the Rottafella Super Telemark and tend to leave the cable off my Voille 3 pin cables. The Hammerhead info is greatly appreciated as maybe I can reclaim some of the glory and terrain of youth while accomodating my inflexibility (or is that flexibility). I hate it when I'm told at a ski or sport shop when I ask if they have any Super Telemarks, "Oh those old things. I don't think we carry them anymore."

The Rottafella Super Teles are my favorite 3-pin (non-heavy Tele) binding. REI recently sold off the last of their stock as an in-store closeout. Guess who grabbed several... (Akers Ski still lists them, but they are sold out.)

All of my boots and bindings are 75mm nordic norm based, from medium leather to heavy plastic and from track skis to heavy Tele. Allows me to mix and match to suit my needs.

Haven't tried the hammerhead, but the report is interesting. I've been happy touring in my Superloop 2000s with the springs set fairly loose and the uppers of my T3s also set loose. I haven't tried touring in my T2s.

Doug

 

[el-bagr]

For what it's worth, I've been skiing on Hammerheads for 5 years now. I'm a lighter skier at 135 lbs, and have never regretted their weight. (Of course, if the terrain calls for my skis mounted with HHs, I'm usually wearing 8.5 lbs of big plastic boots...) I have, however, had success with HHs and Rossi BC-X9 lightweight synth-leather boots. Maybe not the best match, but it's not like they won't work together.

 

[David Metsky]

For my backcountry setup I just Voile w/ removable cables. That (combined with Garmont Excursions) seems to give me more then enough control without needing to lug around a lot of extra weight. When I'm skiing something more serious I'll use my Hardwires and Syner-Gs.

I guess my point is that you can get other bindings that will max out the control you can get with leather boots at a substantial weight reduction. The HH are great bindings, but a pair of SuperLoops would give you pretty much the same control as long as you're using those boots.

Just my $.02. It's all good when you are sliding on snow.

-dave-

 

[sardog1]

FWIW -- I spent some time looking for the cables that are available for the Super Telemarks. But then I had a chance at an amazing pro-deal price on HH. Coupled with a serendipitous gift of the Boundarys, the celestial alignment seemed right to try my crazy experiment.

Thanks to all who have responded with their perspectives. Keep 'em coming -- Pinnah? Pinnah?

 

[dave.m]

The biggest problem with putting HHs on your Boundarys is that it will make it harder for me to try them out!! If I'm remembering right, that ski had a rep for being a nice powder ski and I've always to try a pair.

HH's wouldn't have been my first choice but that's based on my bias away from cables in general. I'm a big fan of experiment though and a big fan of percieved gear mismatches. For example, I reallly like Extremes on skinny touring skis. Most would say it's too much boot but it really transforms the skinnier skis. And you are in really good company in using the HH with lighter boots. Russel Rainey advocated using them with Excursions with really big skis.

I'm really lucky to have both leather Extremes and light platics. IME, light plastics tour like dog vomit and are utterly joyless in powder compared to the feel of leather on a nice round flexing ski. But, as soon as the ski waist gets above 60mm and the snow gets firm, the plastic boots really change everything.

The question then for folks skiing only on leather is what can be done binding-wise to improve turning control (compared to what plastic can deliver). I think the big weakness of leathers is the lack of torsional stiffness through the toe box. If I were going to push leathers into the realm of more control, I would look at either the Voile 3 Pin/Hardwire or the Voile VP-II. In both cases, the hope would be to add more torsional stiffness.

I'm super curious to hear how the HH and leather experiment works. I consider all boot/binding/ski combos experiements btw. Its the best way to learn. You'll end up getting good use out of the HH any way you look at it -- with these boots or with others.

Oh... I match my Extremes with either plain pins (I too like the Rottys best) or with Voile classic 3Pin/Cables. I'm either using them for rough kick and glide or softer snow turns. If the goals are steeper, I'm taking a burlier rig all togehter and move up to plastics.

 

[sardog1]

But, as soon as the ski waist gets above 60mm and the snow gets firm, the plastic boots really change everything.

Yeah, I wimped out on a narrow woods trail on Sunday for just that reason with my Extremes. There was a softish crust that I "mostly" floated on, and I could feel the intimations of limitations with the boots. But I also didn't stop to change the cable tension, so it wasn't really a fair test.

And you're right about stiffer boots on skinny skis -- I almost feel disloyal to my Snowfields, now that I've found out what the Extremes feel like on my Karhu Kodiaks.

 

[--M.]

and I could feel the intimations of limitations with the boots.

"...intimations of limitations"!!! ALL RIGHT!

This has been a helpful thread; keep it up, thanks.

--M.

 

[sardog1]

Six-year field test report:

Still lovin' the HH on the Boundarys with the leather Extremes. A most excellent set-up for my off-track stuff. And I bet I'm one of the few people on the planet who's regularly had to wipe the odd klister glob off the side of these bindings.

– big time.

 

[cushetunk]

Well, you're stuck so far into the past with that gear, it's almost embarrassing just to read this post. On the other hand, you're having fun and skiing, so I'll give you that for an overall win.

 

[bcskier]

If you like touring in HHs you'll be even happier with Axls.

 

[skiguy]

More time in the gym doing squats and lunges would make all of us better skiers and less time for discussion on issues like this that could go round and round about gear. There will always be another mouse trap or a new and better way to peel an onion. The important thing is that we all have fun doing it or it would not be worth posting about this in the first place. To shred and to shred to his or her own. Happy trails!

 

[dave.m]

Well, you're stuck so far into the past with that gear, it's almost embarrassing just to read this post.

????

What aspect of that rig do you consider to be antiquated. The names have changed, but each and every part still has counter parts being made today. 99% of "new" is marketing BS designed to gin up feelings of inadequacy that can only be fixed by wearing out your magnetic strip. (Apologies to Cockburn)

My skis are older than his Boundaries. Still ski great.

On the other hand, you're having fun and skiing, so I'll give you that for an overall win.

This is true

 

[cushetunk]

Asolo Extremes in Hammerheads for BC touring and I'm the one asked to explain myself?

I love my old gear (Merrill Fuzions!) for certain purposes, but I don't run my computer with a hand crank.

I think sardog must be one very talented skier.

Not judging, just having some good-natured fun.

 

[sardog1]

sardog1 be very cheap and very uninterested in crowds, so Boundarys + Asolo Extremes + Hammerheads = optimization of cost, control, reliability and comedy for him, with an admixture of nostalgia for leather days gone by. (sardog1 learned to ski on handmade wooden skis with a toe strap, but would never dream of claiming he's talented as a skier.)

 

[dave.m]

Asolo Extremes in Hammerheads for BC touring and I'm the one asked to explain myself?

If you want your post understood, yes.

IMO, the efficacy of different rigs can only be understood of intended uses (and skier pref). One thing that may be at play here is that when the Extreme and Boundary first came out, they were thought of as lift served gear. Today, that is laughable [1]. But for more XCD/Backcountry Touring uses, skinnier skis and leather boots remain perfect.


The boots remain incredibly relevant, imo. "Skate" inspired 75mm boots built on injection welted soles like the BCX6 have potential but haven't really arrived yet. Durability and repairability remain issues, just as they were with Fuzions/Matrix style boots. Crispi, Andrew and Scarpa are all still making boots comparable to the Extreme and for good reasons. The Scarpa Wasatch is available currently in the US.

The skis remain very relevant. The Boundary's sidecut is/was roughly 85/65/75, just a bit wider than the current Madshus Eon, which is 83-62-70. Add to this that the Boundary has a rounder flex and add some kick wax, and you have a nice light touring ski.

Regarding the Hammerheads, two things are worth noting. First, Russel Rainey was very clear that his preferred boot to match to the Hammerhead was the Excursion. That's not much boot. That's just a small tick north of an Extreme. Rainey's argument was two-fold. First, he argued that the HH set on position 1 was a good touring cable. Second, he argued that the HH set on higher settings added power to otherwise low boots.

The second thing to note is that people have been pairing cables with leather touring boots consistently since (to my knowledge) since the late 50s/early 60s. The argument compared to pins is more durability (at the trade off of striding efficiency). The only downside I can see with a HH on setting 1 for this application is weight.

My pref for this sort of rig would be plain pins. But seeing how the sole of Extremes just ripped off (glue failure), I can't rule out the connection between worn pin holes and the sole damage. So I get the case to be made for a touring capable cable. I'll stay with pins though.

[1] - I skied Gunstock yesterday on T1s (ancient, very soft), pins (releasable) and Tua Cirques!!

 

[sardog1]

"The only downside I can see with a HH on setting 1 for this application is weight."

That's a fact, Jack.
And thanks for the support!