Mapping software

[sapblatt]

I am very new to the mapping software area - I do not have a GPS, nor any immediate plans to get one, but I liked the idea of putting together my own routes, notes, etc for my hikes. I recently bought the East Region of TOPO USA. First of all - I really wish it had a book...I am finding the help files to be tedious...Second, does anyone know if there is a way to remove a MapNote after you put one on your map (on the computer) - or to move a note for that matter. Lastly - has anyone ever noticed how incorrect the maps are at least as far as trail names are concerned?? I am suprised I have never heard this complaint here, but is amazing how many trails are unnamed, or the trail name is assigned to the wrong trail. A couple of examples include the Great Gully Trail being listed as the King Ravine Trail and Short Line is shown as the only trail that reaches the Appalachia parking lot - funny, as it does not even terminate there...everything near the cone of Madison is off...
Does no one care about this because they are just getting coordinates for their GPS's?
Just wondering...

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I use TOPO! 4.0, and it's "just OK". I know that doesn't help much. I wanted to get something which would, in addition to hiking, help me with bike rides. I wanted to say "X st. at Y rd., Bedford", "A st. at B. rd., Amherst", ... to form the points for a circuit. It doesn't do this, and the roads are not well-marked.

For trails, it almost always comes up with less distance, by 10-20% than the AMC WMG. I think it ignores the elevation changes (i.e. "PUD") which contribute to it low-balling the distance. It's usually within 50-100' on the elevation, however. How accurately you follow the trail has a big impact, of course.

What version do you have? When I have notes on my maps, I can remove them via right-click->delete. This is TOPO! 4.0.


Tim

 

[sapblatt]

I have the same version - I think I tried to right-click to see if any options came up last night - I will try again...Thanks!

 

[DougPaul]

Pay attention to the scale of the maps. (This info is often hard to find on the packages.) Many of the products use 100K scale if they cover the entire US. Smaller regional maps may also give you 25K scale.

Most of these products are based upon USGS topos. The data is at least 10yrs old and individual trails may not be named.

FWIW, National Geographic TOPO! New England covers the NE states with 100K and 25K topos.


Also, it is a good idea to include the manufacturer when naming a product--the names of the topo products from different manufacturers can be very confusable. eg National Geographic TOPO!. I can think of 3 suppliers who have a product that could be described as topo USA.

Doug

 

[Peakbagr]

GPS Mapping by Rich Owings

There is a really great book called "GPS Mapping" by Rich Owings.
It has chapters on all of the major mapping software programs, how to use the programs, and little tricks and techniques. It can get technical in places, but its a wealth of information on how to get the most out of your software.
The book was recommended to me by one of my GPS mentors, and he was spot on as to its value and usefulness. I got my copy thru Amazon and its worth every $.

Alan

 

[sapblatt]

Also, it is a good idea to include the manufacturer when naming a product--the names of the topo products from different manufacturers can be very confusable. eg National Geographic TOPO!. I can think of 3 suppliers who have a product that could be described as topo USA.

Doug

Doug - thanks for the info - it is DeLorme...

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Different products... TOPO USA is DeLorme, and TOPO! is N.G.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

Doug - thanks for the info - it is DeLorme...

Digital maps come in three formats:
* Digial Raster Graphic (DRG), an image of a paper map. (Available as images of the paper USGS topos from the USGS at 100K and 25K scales)
* Digital Line Graphic (DLG), the lines to draw a map. (Available from the USGS in 100K scale. Don't know about 25K.)
* Digital Elevation Map (DEM), a grid of elevations. (Available from the USGS, typ resolutions 30m and 90m)

Some of the earlier DeLorme topos were derived by processing DEMs to create topos rather than using DRGs of the USGS paper topos and lack resolution. Don't know if DeLorme has fixed this by switching to the DRGs. Because of this, DeLorme used to have inferior quality maps compared to National Geographic and Maptech (again, don't know if DeLorme has caught up.)

100K DLGs of the USGS paper topos are available online from the USGS. (These likely have been used to make the DLGs used by GPS suppliers. Most GPSes use DLGs, not DRGs or images.) Don't know if the 25K topos are available in DLG format. Garmin sells 25K DLG topos for selected areas--I don't know where they got these maps.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Different products... TOPO USA is DeLorme, and TOPO! is N.G.

Yup--That is what I figured from the original descriptions.

Doug

 

[SAR-EMT40]

I am using Delorme usa version 6 as part of the package of the PN-20 and it appears that they are DLGs. Don't know for sure if they are 1/100000 or 1/25000 but their linear data is obviously vector data that is close, not exact which you would expect from vector data. Not like the data represented on the DRGs or exact to match the tracks from the GPS. I use to do a lot of work years ago with DLGs and DEMs. The USGS did have 1/25000 DLGs as I remember but years ago (like 10 maybe) IIRC I thought that I read that they decided to no longer support the DLGs at all and put all of their eggs in the DRG formats. You can still get the DLG data but don't expect upgrades of any type. On the up side. With the PN20 you can get updates to Delorme version 6 to include several formats of aerial photos as well as DRGs which is great.

Keith

 

[DougPaul]

I am using Delorme usa version 6 as part of the package of the PN-20 and it appears that they are DLGs. Don't know for sure if they are 1/100000 or 1/25000 but their linear data is obviously vector data that is close, not exact which you would expect from vector data.

Most entire USA digital topo maps are 100K scale. My Garmin Mapsource Topo USA occupies 1.4GB delivered on 4 CDROMs. 25K would probably occupy ~23GB on ~40 CDROMs...

The USGS did have 1/25000 DLGs as I remember but years ago (like 10 maybe) IIRC I thought that I read that they decided to no longer support the DLGs at all and put all of their eggs in the DRG formats.

My recollection is the opposite--the USGS was pushing the DLG topos and DEM data and it was available online. From my notes:
* USGS Data Available online: http://mcmcweb.er.usgs.gov/sdts/data.html
* Data index: http://edc2.usgs.gov/geodata/index.php
* Data download: http://edc2.usgs.gov/geodata/dlg_large/states.php

On the other hand, many have lamented that the USGS topo DRGs are public domain, but the USGS doesn't see fit to put them on a publically available server, leaving them to commercial sites to charge for delivering them. (Some states etc have made them available, some have not--it has taken an open-source-style effort to make them available for all states: http://libre.redjar.org/maps/ )

Doug

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Most entire USA digital topo maps are 100K scale. My Garmin Mapsource Topo USA occupies 1.4GB delivered on 4 CDROMs. 25K would probably occupy ~23GB on ~40 CDROMs...


My recollection is the opposite--the USGS was pushing the DLG topos and DEM data and it was available online. From my notes:
* USGS Data Available online: http://mcmcweb.er.usgs.gov/sdts/data.html
* Data index: http://edc2.usgs.gov/geodata/index.php
* Data download: http://edc2.usgs.gov/geodata/dlg_large/states.php

On the other hand, many have lamented that the USGS topo DRGs are public domain, but the USGS doesn't see fit to put them on a publically available server, leaving them to commercial sites to charge for delivering them. (Some states etc have made them available, some have not--it has taken an open-source-style effort to make them available for all states: http://libre.redjar.org/maps/ )

Doug

I looked at the links and I think I remember a little better now. It wasn't that they were going to do away with the support for the DLGs. At the time there were two types of formats for the DLGs originally, the STDS and something else. It was the non-STDS format they were not going to support any more and did away with entirely. Again, this was ten years ago but that is what I remember.

I use to render the data from the DLGs on my PC. Later I started rendering the data on my Compaq Aero 2150 hand held computer while hooked to a GPS. It would act like a moving map display. I also would transfer the DRGS to my Compaq so I had the ability to use both vector and raster data in my car or while hiking albeit a littlt unwieldy. It was proof of concept actually. It worked pretty well. Not impressive today but 10 years ago it was pretty cool.

You are correct also about the availability of the data being stored and distrbuted by commercial enterprises. It really isn't right that we have to pay someone to get the DRG data. At least as far as I can tell the DLG and DEM data can still be downloaded at no cost. If anyone needs a reader for that data and a compiler and wants to upgrade it to current MS VC6++ format let me know. Maybe we can work a deal. If I can find my source.

Keith

 

[DougPaul]

You are correct also about the availability of the data being stored and distrbuted by commercial enterprises. It really isn't right that we have to pay someone to get the DRG data. At least as far as I can tell the DLG and DEM data can still be downloaded at no cost.

Yeah--having to pay some commerical enterprise for public domain data that was collected by the government and paid for by the taxpayers does leave a bad taste...

Fortunately all 25K topo DRGs are available free through the efforts of others: http://libre.redjar.org/maps/ . Don't know about the other scales.

Doug

 

[Neil]

Second, does anyone know if there is a way to remove a MapNote after you put one on your map (on the computer) - or to move a note for that matter.

Topo! rocks. I found the help file to be well...helpful and easy to read and use.
To perform an operation on a note you probably have to have the note tool activate (pressed in) on your tool bar.

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Topo! rocks. I found the help file to be well...helpful and easy to read and use.
To perform an operation on a note you probably have to have the note tool activate (pressed in) on your tool bar.

I have TOPO! and had thought pretty highly of it. I bought it when it was originally published by wildflower software? or something like that. God my memory sucks. Got an upgrade version of it when they were purchased by NG. Had some problems with them abiding by the contract for the GPS connection in the software after an upgrade but NG eventually made it right.

Keith

 

[DougPaul]

I have TOPO! and had thought pretty highly of it. I bought it when it was originally published by wildflower software? or something like that. God my memory sucks. Got an upgrade version of it when they were purchased by NG. Had some problems with them abiding by the contract for the GPS connection in the software after an upgrade but NG eventually made it right.

Your aging memory is ok here. I think it was Wildflower Productions. They were bought out by NG.

NG TOPO! is a nice combination of DRGs at multiple scales plus the corresponding DEM with a reasonable interface. My only real complaint is that they resampled the USGS DRGs from the original 250dpi to 175dpi. Looks ok on the screen unless you magnify it. The print-outs would also be better at the original resolution.

Doug

 

[Neil]

Lastly - has anyone ever noticed how incorrect the maps are at least as far as trail names are concerned??
Just wondering...

The maps used by Topo! are only as accurate as the scanned USGS quads. Anything man-made is not to be trusted IMO. Trails get re-routed, shellters moved etc. etc.

I use Topo! extensively for planning hikes. Whether I plan on using a gps or not I find the program invaluable. Take the time to learn every function, it's worth it.

 

[DougPaul]

The maps used by Topo! are only as accurate as the scanned USGS quads.

There are accuracy specs (something like the errors have to be less than x meters for 90% of the points on the map*) for the USGS topos and they have at least been spot checked.

This, of course, does not mean that they are perfect or that they can magically update themselves when something is changed.

In total, we are far better off with them than we would be without them.

* The specs are available on a USGS website. I may have even posted them on this BBS at some point in the dim, dark past.

Doug

 

[Raymond]

Doug, what do you do with those Libre maps? I called one up at random and it’s just a bunch of speckles. I don’t see any way to zoom in on it, and I don’t have any way of printing 30x40 sheets, or whatever it would take.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

NG Topo! is good. If it actually knew about the trails so I didn't need to trace them then it would be really good.

Tim