What's OK?

[TCD]

And here's another thread. We should try for a very civil discussion here...mods please pull this if it gets heated.

Here's what I think is OK, and what I do in the woods:

Entirely untracked woods:

I make an effort to leave no trace at all. I try not to scrape the moss off rocks, I go a different way each time, I work around blowdown rather than breaking off branches to go through it. No one should be able to tell that I've been there.

Existing Marked Trails:

I maintain existing trails. I clear out clogged waterbars to let water drain off the trail. I pull blowdown and branches off the trail, and I cut blowdown which is actually across the trail, even if I am not part of an official trail crew.

I do NOT make "improvements" (e.g., cut new waterbars, reroute the trail around mud, build bridges, add flagging or blazes, etc.). To me, these are actual changes to the trail, and require official approval.

Herd Paths:

Here it's alittle blurry, and that's because we as a community are blurry, and not all on the same page about what we want. Many of us want a "wilderness experience" which looks a little like "no one has been there," and we get upset at things that indicate someone has been there, like flagging. But many of us, and sometimes the same folks, would not want to do a particular route without the benefit of the herd path, even though the herd path is an incontrovertible indication that "someone has been there."

When I'm on herd paths, I take sort of a middle road. I don't cut things, or do anything to the ground, and I certainly don't create any markings. But I can't pretend no one has been there. If I'm on a clear path, and a small tree has fallen across the path, if I can pick it up and toss it out of the way, I do, because that's better than creating a path around the tree. And if multitple paths have developed in an area, and one is clearly best, I'll toss some down brush on the other paths to discourage their use.

So. Opinions? We have to remember that we have "wilderness", but we also have trails and paths that we like. We can't make a valid argument with one foot on the trail and one foot in the wilderness.

TCD

 

[AntlerPeak]

And here's another thread. We should try for a very civil discussion here...mods please pull this if it gets heated.

Here's what I think is OK, and what I do in the woods:

Entirely untracked woods:

I make an effort to leave no trace at all. I try not to scrape the moss off rocks, I go a different way each time, I work around blowdown rather than breaking off branches to go through it. No one should be able to tell that I've been there.

Existing Marked Trails:

I maintain existing trails. I clear out clogged waterbars to let water drain off the trail. I pull blowdown and branches off the trail, and I cut blowdown which is actually across the trail, even if I am not part of an official trail crew.

I do NOT make "improvements" (e.g., cut new waterbars, reroute the trail around mud, build bridges, add flagging or blazes, etc.). To me, these are actual changes to the trail, and require official approval.

Herd Paths:

Here it's alittle blurry, and that's because we as a community are blurry, and not all on the same page about what we want. Many of us want a "wilderness experience" which looks a little like "no one has been there," and we get upset at things that indicate someone has been there, like flagging. But many of us, and sometimes the same folks, would not want to do a particular route without the benefit of the herd path, even though the herd path is an incontrovertible indication that "someone has been there."

When I'm on herd paths, I take sort of a middle road. I don't cut things, or do anything to the ground, and I certainly don't create any markings. But I can't pretend no one has been there. If I'm on a clear path, and a small tree has fallen across the path, if I can pick it up and toss it out of the way, I do, because that's better than creating a path around the tree. And if multitple paths have developed in an area, and one is clearly best, I'll toss some down brush on the other paths to discourage their use.

So. Opinions? We have to remember that we have "wilderness", but we also have trails and paths that we like. We can't make a valid argument with one foot on the trail and one foot in the wilderness.

TCD

You raise some thoughtful question TCD and you are correct in saying some things are blurry. When on the trail or a herd path I tend to leave things alone. There are plenty of opportunities to participate with several organizations to contribute your time and efforts to trail crews. Some you can actually do on your own such as through trail or lean-to adoptor programs. It gets complicated when taking individual action. Such as removing flagging. I'd guess that with something like flagging if you come across it you can only guess as to how it got there. Sometimes it is legitimate, such as a boundary marker or placed to identify a planned route.

When the present Allen herd path was installed by the 46rs flagging was put in place for the purpose of establishing a route. Sometime later when a path had been established I was part of the crew that went in to remove the flagging. Sometimes land owners place flagging for various purposes. It is difficult to be certain if you are not part of the plan. I'd opt to say it is best to simply report flagging to the local ranger.

Removing fallen branches from an established and maintained trail is a different matter. But on herd paths, not so clear. Some would flame you while others quietly praise. It seems the NYS regulations say no, not sure how the Forest Service or New England states view that.

 

[Mark Schaefer]

Good thread.

I agree joining a trail crew or becoming an official maintainer is best. But I believe there is some helpful work we can while on hikes.

Always be aware of the rules where you are hiking, and do not attempt any free lance work if it is forbidden in that area.

Cleaning water bars and pulling light blowdown from marked trails is within the ability of most hikers. Be careful not to disturb brushed-in old trails or side paths, and be careful not to damage saplings. I never mark or remark trails. I pick up fallen trail markers as litter. I will prop up a downed trail sign as best I can, but I would not attempt to rehang. If a trail needs more extensive attention, determine the maintaining organization and call or email them, their web sites usually have the needed info.

I leave flagging in place, as I would not want to potentially disturb legitimate work in progress.

I don't build or add to cairns, but I also feel it is useless to scatter unofficial cairns. I know of several areas where cairns come and go. It is a certainty that they will be rebuilt, and each time it happens the surrounding area will be trampled a bit to collect the needed rocks.

 

[Woody]

TCD,

I think your activities seem very reasonable. I wouldn't have any problem with them unless specifically counter to local regulations.

Woody

 

[Tom Rankin]

TCD,

I think your activities seem very reasonable. I wouldn't have any problem with them unless specifically counter to local regulations.

Woody

While on a herd path, if I run into (figuratively or literally) a sharp branch at head height, that might cause injury, I may try to remove it. Otherwise, I do not do a lot of herd-path-maintenance.

On marked trail, Laurie and I frequently stop and remove small logs, sticks, etc. that are in the trail. We even kick out a few water bars now and then. I guess it's because we both do trail maintenance 'officially' at various times...

 

[Jay H]

I wouldn't touch anything on a herd path, since after all it's not an official trail. I will do occasional branch tossing on marked trails but like mentioned, no trail "improvements" or so. When bushwacking, I try to avoid going through brambles, but most often, there isn't much a choice.

As a trail maintainer in the catskills, if I am hiking on the way to my trail and I have my gerber saw, pruners, etc, I will sometimes do some similar minded trails on those that are not mine but nothing that I wouldn't do on "my" trail.

My attitude, if somebody really wants a wilderness experience, one can bushwack to a peak that's not on any popular "list". AKA hike to a ADK or Catskills Hundred Highest or perhaps just pick a low altitude peak of interest.

Jay

 

[Rivet]

I don't believe NYS regulations prohibit anyone from removing dead/downed limbs/branches from a trail or path.

 

[Adk_dib]

there was some blowdown on Wedge brook trail coming off of Lower Wolfe Jaws 2 weekends ago. This is a "marked" trail. When I went to step over it I got poked close to the eye with a branch about 1 inch thick. I broke it off so no one else would get "poked". Never did aything like that before. Didn't think to much about it when I did it. If I ran into the same thing I would probably do it again.

 

[Greg]

I agree with everything said

for NH and Maine, not sure of NY rules. As a maintainer, I'd say leave major stuff to them, but tossing easily moved branches/sticks is fine. Also, kicking out full drainages would probably be okay. I've kicked open plugged drainages during rain storms.
Herd paths I wouldn't do anything unless there was a danger to others or side paths were being created by blowdown,etc.

 

[Jay H]

As a trail maintainer in NY (catskills), I am not allowed to do any major work, i.e. if I see a 4" or larger tree across the path, I simply mark where it is and report it to the DEC ranger for my region and they will send out a chain saw crew. All my maintenance is via non- powered hand tools as I am the maintainer who is volunteering from the NYNJTC not the NY State Parks or DEC.

Jay

 

[Fu Jow Pai]

I thought alot about this a few years back when I hiked out of Woodland Valley for Giants Ledge in the Catskills. I came across two big logs crossing a seasonal stream, obviously there on purpose, as I started to cross, one of the logs began to crack, I tested it and realized the next person who steps on this is going to break it and could easily get hurt in the fall (It was about a 5 foot drop) I spent a long time thinking about what I should do and finally decided to purposely break the log, turned out to be no easy task, as I didn't want to take the fall myself I ultimately dropped a sizable boulder on it and snapped it in half. I still don't know if I did the right thing, I guess I could have waited til I got back and reported it to a Ranger, but at that point someone could have taken the fall and gotten hurt. Thoughts?

 

[MtnMagic]

Replace the broken one with a new log if found easily nearby.

 

[Jay H]

Might of been a hard thing to do if solo, if I'm thinking of the spot where Fu Jow Pai is talking about (I know the guy). Whatever you do, certainly reporting it to the ranger for that region is a good idea. The ranger (and region) is typically listed either in the trail register in the book or sometimes written on a placard inside the register box for the catskills. That sounds like something that you'd have to decide upon the situation. Sure, if it's easy enough, replace the log but I'm pretty sure I know what bridge you're talking about...

Jay

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Herd Paths.

Herd Paths:

Here it's alittle blurry, and that's because we as a community are blurry, and not all on the same page about what we want. ..."

The community may be blurry, but it isn't the community who decides. In the Adirondacks, the way that maintenence is done on the herd paths to the "Traillless" peaks, is well defined. There was a committee made up of he 46ers, the ADK, the DEC, and 'the public'. The compromise that this committee came out with, is that these paths should have minimal maintenence. They are/were to be re-habilitated, where a single path would remain, and secondary paths would be closed off.

The purpose of the maintenence is to protect the resource, not to make it easier for the hiker. For example, blowdown will be cleared if it is causing someone to take an alternate route, but not if it is an inconvienence.

I'm the DEC approved maintainer for the path on Street and Nye. I have to head up there soon, because it appears that some well intentioned person has flagged a shortcut to Street. There was an old herd path, which we closed off, but apparently someone cleared the blowdown we used to close it off, re-opening it.

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Existing trails.

AExisting Marked Trails:

I maintain existing trails. I clear out clogged waterbars to let water drain off the trail. I pull blowdown and branches off the trail, and I cut blowdown which is actually across the trail, even if I am not part of an official trail crew.

The only problem here is the scale of things. I'll explain with a story.

We (46ers) are the maintainers of the Dix trails. Each spring, we clear blowdown. About 5 years ago, after a bad winter, there was a lot of blowdown. The DEC told is, as did reading reports on the net. We gathered a large crew to go there to clear it. We arrived, headed in, and found no blowdown. Some group had decided to do a favor, and spend a day clearing blowdown. We were stuck with a bout 15 willing workers, with no work. Contacts at the DEC tell me that this happens to them as well. They pay a crew to head in to do something, and the work has already been done. It's a real waste of resources, either volunteer time, or taxpayers' money.

If only people had been notified.

I realize that there is a big differene between clearing a bit, and getting a crew in to do it, however it's a line moving from white to gray to black.

 

[sierra]

To be honest Im amazed at the level of concern people put into others and what they do in the woods. Im not saying tcd didnt raise some valid points but I will say he's to "by the book" for me and how I relate to wilderness and or all the situations he described. My point, Im not that anal about the woods. I consider myself like any other animal in the woods, Im not afraid to step on a stick. Im not completely insensitive ie. I watch alpine plants when traveling cross country in the northern peaks ( yes I do that) and I would never litter, BUT I do go to the bathroom and such pretty much where I want without going all eco. Truth is, I see the woods as my place and Im not afraid to use them as such, now adays people have become so anal and the funny thing is alot of them think the AMC are the leaders of stewardship, I mean, I cant tramp off trail at will breaking my way through what impeeds my way but the AMC can build many huts in ULTRA sensitive areas creating an enviorment of continuing impact and no one bats an eye.
My intent is not to bash the AMC here let me be clear on that, to each his own. But IM not a social climber/hiker, Ive never met anyone on this board and Ive been on it for years. I do my own thing. I will say this though,I have hiked all over the Whites for well over 20 years and not just 5 times a year, I hike every week all year every year. Im not spouting my resume for accolades here my point is, we all see and do things differently, I consider the Whites my hometurf, I know the AMC thinks its theirs, thats fine we all share and we all have that right " land of many uses" but if you see my throwing my new knife in a tree for practice dont bother preaching to me I dont want to hear it. I wave and act polite to people I meet and dont worry what thier doing, its america after all and no place exibits that better then americas backcountry be free and roam thats what I say, leave the beauracracy at the road imo.

 

[forestgnome]

Agreed with Sierra. I'm one of the animals in the forest. I belong there as much as any other animal or plant.

It's trail maintenance, not rocket science. I'm astounded at the idea that clearing a trail of blowdown could be anything but good. I understand the dispute concerning herd paths; both sides have merit. I don't clear them, but I wouldn't worry about it.

If someone found me maintaining a trail and critisized me for it, I'd laugh at them and tell them to go home. Maybe I'm not burying other people's tp wads deep enough by official standards. Tough s*#t!!! Maybe some trail crews pick up garbage and bury fesces and tp wads, but I know for certain that not all do because I've hiked along freshly-maintained trails and seen aged trash.

Once I saw a ranger at Oliverian Brook Trailhead after a hike. I showed her the can of Coleman fuel and grill I hauled out from an illegal campsite, and I explained that I cleaned up a buch of broken glass from the site, which was right on the brook bank. She frowned and said that she had just spread the glass around to discourage others from camping there. That is utter nonsense!!!

WMNF is my special place, and I'm not going to leave it up to the officials to keep it beautiful.

Happy Trails

 

[Pete_Hickey]

Note that while this discussion was going on, there were two threads about people going too far with their unofficial trail maintenence. (Mav's about the cutting on Couchie, and CarolE's about someone using a weed-a-cide to clear a trail.)

It does happen.

 

[giggy]

Agreed with Sierra. I'm one of the animals in the forest. I belong there as much as any other animal or plant.
QUOTE]

great point -

- just some common sense is the deal really, - some people think breaking wind in the woods is violating LNT -

LALTAP - leave as little trace as possible is more realistic LNT is staying at home and not hiking....