Thoreau Falls Bridge Removal?

[Raven]

How could there be a Dunaccino in the Wilderness? Not advocating NEW construction, only replacing what is already there.

It sounds like you are advocating ignoring wilderness rules. These rules define what IS and what IS Not allowed in wilderness areas.

Perhaps I misinterpreted your statement:

"Wilderness" rules be damned.

 

[dug]

I meant, in the case where there was as structure needing to be rebuilt (and to add, was originally built for safety), in a well established area, then in my opinion it should operate outside said rules.

 

[TomK]

These rules define what IS and what IS Not allowed in wilderness areas.

The enforcement of rules get ignored all the time. Please don't ask me to cite examples, it would lead us down a rathole we don't want to go near.

TomK

 

[Raven]

I meant, in the case where there was as structure needing to be rebuilt (and to add, was originally built for safety), in a well established area, then in my opinion it should operate outside said rules.

Got ya, Dug. Makes sense. I get your point and it's a good one. My ire just gets up when I hear about ignoring wilderness rules. Believe me though, I am not opposed to practicing civil disobedience when I think it's the ethical thing to do for the greater good.

The enforcement of rules get ignored all the time. Please don't ask me to cite examples, it would lead us down a rathole we don't want to go near.

TomK

Yes it does Tom and no need to cite examples. I agree there is no need to go into that rathole.

I am more interested that the reasoning behind replacing the bridge or not is a sound, well informed reason. You can be sure that this will be an example referenced in the future when someone wants to remove or replace another bridge. The act itself is less important to me than the reasoning used behind the act because that will lay groundwork for future arguments regarding our little wilderness. (example: removal of the 180 foot bridge is being used as justification for removing this one, whether that is a good argument or not. Devil may be in the details there.)

How the outcome either way is justified is where my interest is at this point.

I'll use the bridge if it's replaced and I'll be happy to have this safe, easy access in place. If it's not replaced, I'll ford the river and be happy for the extra solitude on the other side.

I am interested in the continued good arguments I am hearing though. People have been bringing some really good points, facts, historical perspective, and personal views to the argument. I hope it continues. This is truly a tough decision from my perspective even though many of us are clear in our thinking and opinion. I'm just not sure on this one yet.

Keep making points.

 

[peakbagger]

Raven, maybe they should relocate the historic bridge sitting on blocks just east of Appalachia on the Presidential range trail in Randolph to the TFT. The bridge was nicely moved, set on blocks and access to the abutments was installed and then all progress stopped. I am curious if they are at least going to get around removing the wooden stairs prior to winter.

 

[Raven]

Raven, maybe they should relocate the historic bridge sitting on blocks just east of Appalachia on the Presidential range trail in Randolph to the TFT. The bridge was nicely moved, set on blocks and access to the abutments was installed and then all progress stopped. I am curious if they are at least going to get around removing the wooden stairs prior to winter.

That is an interesting idea. I saw the stairs last weekend and was wondering when there was going to be progress there. Bridges are certainly the hot topic of the day.

 

[peakbagger]

Been a few weeks since there has been any activity on this thread. Anyone one know the status?

 

[peakbagger]

I guess I was one day too early

http://www.concordmonitor.com/news/...ridge-in-pemi-wilderness-wont-happen-until-at

This is good news in that the FS is actually committing to a real study, versus justifying a foregone conclusion. Of course the cynic in me is looking at this that they hope another high water event rips it down or that the public forgets about it.

I do find it odd that they reference the Black Brook bridge which if I remember correctly was a historical relic rather than a actual bridge in use?

 

[DougPaul]

I do find it odd that they reference the Black Brook bridge which if I remember correctly was a historical relic rather than a actual bridge in use?

The Black Brook Bridge was a steel bridge supporting the path. (The bridge crossed the stream gully--the path stayed level so it turned upstream from the RR right-of-way to the bridge and then back downstream to return to the RR right-of-way.)

The historical relic bridge was an old wood trestle RR bridge* that crossed the gully on the straight RR right-of-way. The ends were disconnected and there were signs telling people to stay off it.
* As of the 1987 WMG, this was last RR trestle still standing.

The Black Brook Bridge was removed to help erase the route to the Pemi bridge. (According to reports--I haven't been there since the Pemi bridge was murdered^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H removed.) I suspect the historical relic is still there, slowly rotting away.

Doug

 

[Becca M]

The Black Brook Bridge was a steel bridge supporting the path. (The bridge crossed the stream gully--the path stayed level so it turned upstream from the RR right-of-way to the bridge and then back downstream to return to the RR right-of-way.)

The historical relic bridge was an old wood trestle RR bridge* that crossed the gully on the straight RR right-of-way. The ends were disconnected and there were signs telling people to stay off it.
* As of the 1987 WMG, this was last RR trestle still standing.

The Black Brook Bridge was removed to help erase the route to the Pemi bridge. (According to reports--I haven't been there since the Pemi bridge was murdered^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H removed.) I suspect the historical relic is still there, slowly rotting away.

Doug

yes - no change to the historic RR trestle. The old trail (the RR bed to the east of it) that was closed still gets good use. It is obvious that the scrub placed on it has LONG been removed. The old site of the suspension bridge is a VERY popular "bootleg" camping area (both sides - within 200' of the Pemi). So, if someone really wanted to NOT experience human existence there, the cigarette smoke alone should drive you to more wild and remote "wilderness" areas. My tax dollars are not surprised.

 

[peakbagger]

I got a call today from one of Senator Shaheen's staffers regarding the TFT bridge. She seemed to be somewhat well informed of the issue and confirmed that there would be extended review of the project by the FS . I mentioned that lack of available funding was probably a root cause, she indicated that Land Water Conservation Improvement Fund was reauthorized in the last few days and that that a bridge replacement could be funded from that program. She also restated that the FS was encouraged to shift the focus to bridge replacement rather than removal.

It will be interesting to note if the funding issue is raised in the expanded study of the project. To date the FS has couched these projects as Wilderness Area decisions with no discussion on the short term and long term budgetary issues associated with keeping the structures.

I am curious if this approach is also going to apply to currently closed Wild River suspension bridge? Given its location and the Wild River's very unpredictable flow conditions I expect the FS will be hard pressed to not justify repair or replacement but expect if they can they will.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I got a message from the same staffer. She said that the senator wrote to the FS requesting that the bride be replaced, not removed, and that they replied with an environmental assessment would follow, after which an extended comment period should be allowed.

Tim

 

[egilbe]

I got a call today from one of Senator Shaheen's staffers regarding the TFT bridge. She seemed to be somewhat well informed of the issue and confirmed that there would be extended review of the project by the FS . I mentioned that lack of available funding was probably a root cause, she indicated that Land Water Conservation Improvement Fund was reauthorized in the last few days and that that a bridge replacement could be funded from that program. She also restated that the FS was encouraged to shift the focus to bridge replacement rather than removal.

It will be interesting to note if the funding issue is raised in the expanded study of the project. To date the FS has couched these projects as Wilderness Area decisions with no discussion on the short term and long term budgetary issues associated with keeping the structures.

I am curious if this approach is also going to apply to currently closed Wild River suspension bridge? Given its location and the Wild River's very unpredictable flow conditions I expect the FS will be hard pressed to not justify repair or replacement but expect if they can they will.

Are you talking about the bridge by Wild River campground? The bridge near the intersection of the Wild River rd and 113 is still open.

 

[peakbagger]

Are you talking about the bridge by Wild River campground? The bridge near the intersection of the Wild River rd and 113 is still open.

Yes, the Moriah Brook Trail pedestrian suspension bridge near the campground at the end of Wild River Road has been closed since September 1st. Note this bridge crosses the Wild River near the Moriah Brook trail trailhead.

http://www.berlindailysun.com/index...bridge-closed&catid=103:local-news&Itemid=442

Note the reference to that it will be removed, I haven't seen any FS actions similar to TFT bridge yet but expect its coming.

 

[JCarter]

But recall that the Wild River bridge is *outside* the Wilderness, so different processes/rules apply.

 

[peakbagger]

Thanks, I don't have good maps of the wild river boundary but it looks like the boundary was drawn to specifically exclude the bridge. This in theory makes it even more of an issue that the stated plan is to remove the bridge rather than repair/replace

 

[egilbe]

My gf and I debated taking that bridge a few weeks ago. We hiked over from Basin Pond. She talked me out of it, her plantar fasciitis flared up again so we walked down The FS road, instead. Now I have to tell her she was right

 

[Snowflea]

Update: http://goo.gl/UWGmtl

 

[peakbagger]

Thanks for the link. I am not shooting the messenger but

The 69 comments for removal and 78 for replacement is a lot more complex than someone would assume. The original filing for this project was not if it should be removed rather than replaced it was how they would remove it. There was no option given or researched to replace it. Thus the comments for removal tended to back up removal. Once it came up for discussion and Jeb Bradley suggested the appropriate folks to contact I believe the comments shifted to supporting replacement. I also note that the photo used to illustrate the article was taken during near drought conditions. Soon after that visit we had a return to more seasonal weather and the water level was much higher.

 

[Becca M]

Thanks for the link. I am not shooting the messenger but

The 69 comments for removal and 78 for replacement is a lot more complex than someone would assume. The original filing for this project was not if it should be removed rather than replaced it was how they would remove it. There was no option given or researched to replace it. Thus the comments for removal tended to back up removal. Once it came up for discussion and Jeb Bradley suggested the appropriate folks to contact I believe the comments shifted to supporting replacement. I also note that the photo used to illustrate the article was taken during near drought conditions. Soon after that visit we had a return to more seasonal weather and the water level was much higher.

Good point! IT's like taking a picture of the Pemi River itself in a drought - looks easy to cross but most of the time is pretty dangerous