New Hampshire Fish and Game Search and Rescue Funding Hearing

Spoonfeeding for the Google Impaired

There is a very graphic and colorful Powerpoint .pdf ( no doubt produced at an astronomical taxpayer expense) laden with all sorts of scary bar charts here.

One almost gets the feeling that they are crying for more money, but maybe that's just me.

And this little tidbit, which may or may not reflect the current SAR funding scene.

SAR Funding
Department Search and Rescue Fund
RSA 206:42 Fish and Game Search and Rescue
Fund
$1.00 from every OHRV / Snowmobile Registration
$1.00 from every Private Motor Boat Registration
Additional $$ come out of FG General Fund
~12% of Conservation Officer time is for SAR

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And now, back to your regularly scheduled Inquisition...

The figure included law enforcement. What does it mean? How much was SAR and how much law enforcement and what constitutes law enforcement in this dollar figure?

bikehikeskifish said:

we can learn that SAR operations are the mandate of NH F&G and from the pie chart we can see that in FY2010 they spent $5,220,738.
Tim

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hikebikeskifish - I'm deducting points (for your last post) it wasn't concise.

There is a Fish and Game Department.

There is a search and rescue fund created by the Legislature.
(bucket of money dedicated for S&R activities)

The search and rescue fund is administered by the Fish and Game Department.
(F&G is the only ones that can reach into the bucket of money and pull out coins)

That search and rescue fund gets money every year.

How much?

Craig said:

hikebikeskifish - I'm deducting points (for your last post) it wasn't concise.

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You spelled my name wrong. No soup for you.

Tim

Brambor said:

...We all know how police/ambulance and firefighters all come to the scene where only one of these is needed.

Practice for firefighters but money wasted.

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If you're going to pay the firefighter whether he/she is sitting in the firehouse, or out on a fire/accident scene where they might/might not be needed - could you explain "us" how that is money wasted? And how does any of this relate to suggesting how the NH F&G can obtain a steady funding stream which is equitable to all concerned?

Are you suggesting that the New Hampshire Firefighters switched to solar powered firetrucks? It costs money every time they are dispatched. Actually if you called the firefighters on a prank call you would get charged more than $1000 for the cost of the dispatch.

Kevin Rooney said:

If you're going to pay the firefighter whether he/she is sitting in the firehouse, or out on a fire/accident scene where they might/might not be needed - could you explain "us" how that is money wasted? And how does any of this relate to suggesting how the NH F&G can obtain a steady funding stream which is equitable to all concerned?

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Brambor said:

We all know how police/ambulance and firefighters all come to the scene where only one of these is needed.

Practice for firefighters but money wasted.

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I suspect that you might misunderstand what you are actually seeing. Police are there because in many towns they are first responders. Medical personal might be there either because they are part of the fire service or the EMD requires them based upon the call. The firefighters might be there for several reasons. They have the bigger rescue tools if needed. Some of them are medically trained and depending on the service they may be the highest medically trained. And one of the most important things they do is bring huge red/yellow/lime green vehicle weighing tons to protect the scene where the emergency people are working while other people are gawking, often not paying attention, and whizzing by us at 30 to 70 miles per hour. It is neither practice or money wasted. It is common, universally accepted protocol to protect the rescuers - all of them.

Keith

Since, according to Fish and Game figures, hiker incidents account for about half of their search and rescue activity, there is interest in finding some way to have hikers tangibly support this activity.

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Oh, Data Master (I mean you, bikehikeskifish/Tim ) is there a breakout on the "other" half of the SAR activity? Presumably, it's hunters, trappers, sailors (drunken or not) and missing childrens. If these fine folk are already contributing to the SAR budget -- either through license and/or use fees or surcharges on related purchases (i.e., ammo or tackle) -- then I'd suggest we hikers should also cowboy up and pay our fair share. But I wouldn't want to be the only user group so charged.

Craig said:

Why isn't the committee accepting written public comments? That way the Views membership could agree on one message to deliver in writing.

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After reading that comment, I was gonna accuse you of being new here, but with ~600 posts, maybe you were being overly charitable...?

Puck said:

So if I got a real poncho and not a Sears poncho I would be taxed?

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Just throw a couple bucks in the collection plate at St. Alphonso's and call it good.

I'm not providing any more data. Use Google, or browse the links that have provided.

I will point out that waaaaay back in the original post there is a link to the meeting details which lists the committee members. Of interest to hikers is that Jeb Bradley is on this committee. Jeb is a member of the AMC 4000 footer club (in winter too) and if he's not a member of the NEHH, he is working on it. So, if you want to pass your opinion along to him, please do so. I've found him quite responsive in the past. He's also enjoyable company to hike with.

Tim

J.Dub said:

Just throw a couple bucks in the collection plate at St. Alphonso's and call it good.

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Now there's a possible solution - the Biggest Pancake Breakfast Evah SAR Fundraiser. Margarine thieves not welcome.

Federal Funds?

I noticed that about 30% of F&G's income is from the Federal government. I wonder why they get that money and whether it might be at risk because of the deficit showdown?

They came to the nursing home when we called an ambulance. Ambulance took care of the problem and the firefighters provided lots of blinking lights.

SAR-EMT40 said:

I suspect that you might misunderstand what you are actually seeing. Police are there because in many towns they are first responders. Medical personal might be there either because they are part of the fire service or the EMD requires them based upon the call. The firefighters might be there for several reasons. They have the bigger rescue tools if needed. Some of them are medically trained and depending on the service they may be the highest medically trained. And one of the most important things they do is bring huge red/yellow/lime green vehicle weighing tons to protect the scene where the emergency people are working while other people are gawking, often not paying attention, and whizzing by us at 30 to 70 miles per hour. It is neither practice or money wasted. It is common, universally accepted protocol to protect the rescuers - all of them.

Keith

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Craig said:

There is a Fish and Game Department.

There is a search and rescue fund created by the Legislature.
(bucket of money dedicated for S&R activities)

The search and rescue fund is administered by the Fish and Game Department.
(F&G is the only ones that can reach into the bucket of money and pull out coins)

That search and rescue fund gets money every year.

How much?

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While we wait for the above answer....
(hint: Ahole told you)

Every year NH Fish and Game charges expenditures against the Search and Rescue Fund
(sticks their hand into the bucket of money and pulls out some coins)

What are those expenditures for?
(what does F&G spend those coins on?)

meeting report

The committee members were all big supporters of F&G and favored using some general fund money for SAR. But of course other committees have other pet ideas for the general fund. One man mentioned that some day F&G might just have to divest itself of SAR to have enough money for the programs sportsmen are paying for in their license fees.

CORSAR cards were described in a previous meeting and some users favored the idea at costs up to $50/year. The AMC and WMNF were seen as deep pockets to be tapped. The AMC high huts already pay enough in rooms taxes to more than cover SAR but that is already spent as part of the general fund.

One new idea was to add $2 to the cost of each traffic ticket and let the rule-breakers pay for SAR. No speeders showed up to testify against but the head of the police academy said cops historically wrote fewer tickets after an increase and this would hurt his budget funded through tickets. Another idea was a minimum charge for every rescue just like an ambulance fee - constituents want to nail reckless hikers somehow.

The committee will draft a report next Tuesday including proposed legislation.

Brambor said:

They came to the nursing home when we called an ambulance. Ambulance took care of the problem and the firefighters provided lots of blinking lights.

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Again, I wasn't there but far more likely I can tell you we have several nursing homes in my town and none of the alarm systems they have differentiates between medical and fire when the alarm goes out. We don't know what it is when it comes in so we send both fire and EMS, until it is verified what type of an alarm they have. Don't think we are happy about it, we aren't.

Keith

Ok time to stop beatin the dead horse. I believe that everyone is trying to resolve the situation in an open forum. I understand why people disagree with a pay as go system but…

First let’s deal with the question presented about the missing 9 year old boy. MY question is: Who initiated the call to NHF&G? Whoever made the call and asked for their assistance…gets the bill!

Addressing the example of the people who wait to long to contact the SAR, again it comes down to personal responsibility. If you are not aware of the situation early and you PROCRASTINATE then shame on you! George Carlin once stated “Whatever happened to natural selection? You know the kid who swallowed the most marbles didn’t have kids of his own.”

Now the REAL problem: The ones who use the service (SAR) the most (hikers combined with those tourists out for a quick walk that qualify as hikers [only God knows why]) contribute ZERO, NADA, NOTHING to the service that they are using!

The system is broke (broken) and NEEDS to be corrected. The only fair and equitable solution is either having the “hikers” contribute or pay as go!

Peace out.

bandana4me said:

First let’s deal with the question presented about the missing 9 year old boy. MY question is: Who initiated the call to NHF&G? Whoever made the call and asked for their assistance…gets the bill!

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As you can guess what you hear and read in the media is not always accurate.Yesterday was a day to remember for me.I live 20 minutes from where the child went missing.I woke up at 5 am[normal time for me],saw the news on wmur.com and left by 700 am with a stuffed mid size pack full of warm clothes and a sleeping bag for the boy if I found him.Long story short,I spent hours in a swampy and puckerbrush 20 year old clear cut looking for him.Most volunteers were not prepared for the woods or to bushwack so I picked the tough area.My emotions were spent when I got back to my car,never felt so helpless.I hope this thread does not distract people from what is important.With all do respect who cares who foots the bill! We all pay taxes,right?Nh fish/game were much later on the scene and I believe it was the Hampstead police who called them.A rich town like Hampstead can afford the bill.At the end of the day the child was located.That is very important and it seems insignificant to talk about who pays the cash.I was among the first civilian volunteers to show up.My initial impression is that fish/game were the ones who really had it together more then the other agencies.Small town agencies to not seem to have a "blueprint" for a large scale sar mission,emotions seemed to get the better of a lot "professionals" yesterday.

I wonder what the difference in price is outside of White Mountains if a person goes missing in the woods or calls for help?

MichaelJ said:

Let's take this up a notch. Fish and Game, along with many other organizations, is now involved in the search for Devin Frenette, age 9, missing from his home in Hampstead since Monday afternoon.

If "everyone across the board" has to pay for search and rescue services, then shouldn't this family have to pay Fish & Game for their contributions to the search for their child?

I'm guessing a lot of people would say no they shouldn't, and I would then ask them to justify why the difference.

Then again, maybe I'm guessing wrong. What do you think?

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Although I'm interested in facts finding for this overall issue, now that this recent search is over and the outcome was good, I'm going to throw out some numbers to try to estimate how much this search is going to cost the SAR fund.

1. The vast majority of individuals involved were volunteers. (no charge for volunteers)
2. The police and fire department can't charge against the SAR fund. (no charge for police & fire)
3. Fish & Game personnel wages. (3 F&G officers for 2 days paid overtime @ 25.00 per hr straight time pay) ($1800 charge for F&G wages)
4. Fish & Game personnel benefits ($5.00 per hr x hrs spent) ($240 charge for F&G benefits)
4. Fish & Game personnel travel expenses ($100 per person per day) ($600 charge for F&G personnel travel expenses)
5. Fish & Game vehicle & equipment wear and tear and upkeep ($100 per person per day) ($600 charge for F&G equipment wear & tear & upkeep)
6. Fish and Game administrative cost ($50 per hr x duration of event) ($800 charge for administrative fee)

Total amount of money charged to the SAR fund = $4040

Close?

bandana4me said:

Addressing the example of the people who wait to long to contact the SAR, again it comes down to personal responsibility. If you are not aware of the situation early and you PROCRASTINATE then shame on you!

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We can wag fingers all we want, but that won't change the fact that said procrastination creates not just a "shameful" situation for the rescuee, it can create a more dangerous situation for SAR personnel.