Bootleg sign?

Are folks just making their own signs now? This one was at the bottom of the north slide on Mt Tripyramid and directs hikers into the woods instead of up the slide itself. Being painted yellow and screwed directly to a tree with square drives, I'm fairly certain it's non conforming for Wilderness in its materials and installation. I really hope the WVAIA didn't put it there.

Those are definitely bootlegs. I don't think anyone should be going up that way if they can't handle the slide. Of course, maybe folks wouldn't necessarily know how difficult that slide can be. I've done it 3 times and all three I was uncomfortable. The guidebook doesn't necessarily stress that enough.

JoshandBaron said:

I really hope the WVAIA didn't put it there.

Click to expand...

I just checked the WVAIA website and it looks like they maintain that trail and probably did install that sign.

I think it's the real deal. The shape, yellow color and black print is consistent with those posted by the WVAIA, it's been there since at least 2019 and a famous White Mountain blogger refers to it as a "favorite trail sign".

HH1 said:

I think it's the real deal. The shape, yellow color and black print is consistent with those posted by the WVAIA, it's been there since at least 2019 and a famous White Mountain blogger refers to it as a "favorite trail sign".

Click to expand...

Huh. I hadn't been up that trail since probably 2014 but I've spent about a week up on that network this year and don't remember seeing any other yellow signs, certainly not any redundant ones in Wilderness. I guess I should pay more attention.

Check out this report: http://www.proteanwanderer.com/2019/07/21/trip-report-mt-tripyramid-loop/

Definitely not bootlegs. This is the WVAIA style. You'll see plenty of these around the valley.

Also chiming in to say they are official WVAIA signs. If you have not seen Steve Smith's excellent new Waterville Valley guide book, there is a short description of these unique signs near the back of the book.

evilhanz said:

Also chiming in to say they are official WVAIA signs. If you have not seen Steve Smith's excellent new Waterville Valley guide book, there is a short description of these unique signs near the back of the book.

Click to expand...

I'll have to check it out. Are they grandfathered in some sort of exception to Wilderness standards? According to USFS, signs in Wilderness are to be routed bare wood.

JoshandBaron said:

I'll have to check it out. Are they grandfathered in some sort of exception to Wilderness standards? According to USFS, signs in Wilderness are to be routed bare wood.

Click to expand...

My question is why are they directing folks off the slide and into the woods? Which is in effect creating a new/alternate trail.

Go to http://mountainwandering.blogspot.com/2020/ and scroll down just over half way to the first of Steve's two yellow sign photos, taken from a different angle to JoshandBaron's. The sign appears not to have been moved. As you can see it is, in my view, perfectly positioned adjacent to the trail at slide's bottom.

HH1 said:

Go to http://mountainwandering.blogspot.com/2020/ and scroll down just over half way to the first of Steve's two yellow sign photos, taken from a different angle to JoshandBaron's. The sign appears not to have been moved. As you can see it is, in my view, perfectly positioned adjacent to the trail at slide's bottom.

Click to expand...

There need to be more hikers like you out there then, because it looks like everyone else is taking the maintained path that leaves from behind the sign and parallels the slide in the woods

Since you have the very latest info, and are certain this sign is directing hikers into woods causing herd path formation, I'm pretty sure the Waterville Valley association would want to know of this. Here's their email: [email protected]. Let us know what you find out; you'd be doing your hiking community a favor.

And get Steve Smith's favorite sign taken down? Not a chance.

To me, it was pretty obvious to start following the rocks here.

There have been herd paths on the north side of the approach to the slide proper for years. Unfortunately, many herd paths and overall trail creep in the state have become much more prevalent since the huge increase in hikers with social media (and COVID).

I hope the Forest Service continues to be lenient with WVAIA and WODC, as both have plenty of "non-confirming" trail markings in the wilderness. I appreciate all of the work WVAIA does and have no issue with that sign.

rocket21 said:

There have been herd paths on the north side of the approach to the slide proper for years. Unfortunately, many herd paths and overall trail creep in the state have become much more prevalent since the huge increase in hikers with social media (and COVID).

I hope the Forest Service continues to be lenient with WVAIA and WODC, as both have plenty of "non-confirming" trail markings in the wilderness. I appreciate all of the work WVAIA does and have no issue with that sign.

Click to expand...

If I am understanding you correctly you are saying you appreciate a sign keeping people on a single herd path versus having tons of unmarked herd paths because there is no clear direction? I would agree with that as well but I find it really annoying that every minor obstacle on a trail now has a herd path around it - every little patch of mud, every rock that requires a 15 inch step up, etc. I still can't believe how wildly braided the trail is up to Mt Jackson. I can still remember specific rocks that were awkward to step over the first time I did the trail that have a worn path 3 feet wide on either side of them now. And the upper section after the split easily has a dozen viable options to follow up to the base of the cone.

I find this especially annoying on trails like Flume Slide, North Slide and other challenging trails where people basically bypass their way up the whole trail and then brag online about "crushing" the trail. As far as I'm concerned if you did not do the officially blazed route you didn't do the trail but I guess that is some last little remnant of my "list mindset" that hasn't been fully eradicated yet. I like trails that are too rocky or overgrown to allow for bypassing so you are forced to follow the blazed route but I guess that is not friendly to the new age of social media hikers. Can only imagine what things will look like in another 10 years at this pace. Everything will just be a nice open woods walk.

DayTrip said:

...every minor obstacle on a trail now has a herd path around it...

Click to expand...

This is a clear-eyed observation. Same thing over here in the Adirondacks. This change has been developing for decades. Today's hiker population is different from the hiker population of 40 years ago. Most hikers now are focused on convenience. "If something get's in the way, [they] go 'round it."

Here's the deal: no one can change that. The hiker population is what it is. The problem is, hidebound "land managers" persistently refuse to see this change. And they insist on "managing" resources for the hiker population of 40 years ago. Of course this is living in an imaginary world, and the results are obvious.

Today, in the Adirondacks, well-meaning but completely blind trail crews pile brush in the "go around" paths, imagining that they will "force" hikers to go through the "problem" area, whatever the problem is. Of course this is a complete waste of time, and the piled brush is promptly removed the next busy weekend, or an even farther afield "go around" path is created. The time would be better spent fixing the "problem." Turnpike boxes for mud; intermediate steps for high steps and scrambles; boardwalks for bogs.

But you cannot sell that here, either. So called "land managers" are absolutely insistent on "managing" based on an imaginary world that may have existed 40 years ago. This is not management; it is delusion.

This isn't a new phenomena. Couldn't one say the Black Pond Bushwhacks or Brutus Bushwhacks fall into this category? The North Trail Trail stream bypasses?

What starts out is a way to go around an impediment, becomes a herd path and eventually the known path. All depends on how big the impediment is, I suppose.