Baxter Use Dropping?

But Twigeater! Trapping is against the rules at Baxter Park (rule 22, maybe 15, too)!

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GET OUT!! another rule quoter!

please don't tell on me, my biggest fear is being written up in the annual report for a major infraction! (I also brought home a little mouse skull which I believe violates rule 24)

LOL, I had to bite my tongue (actually my pencil) when writing to support snowmobiling in the Park in winter. While we were there a tree fell on an outhouse in the night. I felt it my duty to report the tree for vandalism and violating rule 16 as it happened after 10pm.

twigeater said:

Exactly which regs does everyone hate?
Compare the majority of the regs with LNT and there are no differences.
Is it the no radios, no cellphones, no dogs? Or is it the reservation regulations? To me the regs just enforce respect for other hikers/campers.

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OK, I'll give one response from someone who would be an archtypical BSP user but has never been there: I hate the no dogs regulation, and I think the safety-oriented stuff is silly. The reservation system is fine with me; I saw the need for this develop in the BWCA years ago and I accepted it there.

Yes, I know that dogs are generally banned in the backcountry at the national parks, and I hate that reg also. Yes, I know that many other people hate dogs, mostly because some dog owners are incapable or unwilling to train and control their dogs appropriately.

Yes, I also know that people go unprepared into the backcountry; I have spent almost all of my free time over the past 20 years searching for some of them (with a dog, including several times in the national parks in the Pacific NW). But the safety regs detract from the freedom of wilderness travel that many of us seek. 'Tis better to educate backcountry users, through VFTT and other sources, than to regulate them on this aspect, IMO.

When I first arrived in NH from AK, the first three state parks I visited all banned dogs. If it weren't for the dog friendly WMNF, I wouldn't have spent another 24 hours here in the Northeast.

Rant done -- must go lie down now and think of pleasant, lonely, doggy hikes far from the madd(en)ing crowds.

thanks for the response sardog1.
Percival Baxter was an avid dog lover who understood that domestic animals do not belong in a place that is meant to be a "sanctuary for wild animals."

Actually, the rule is not "no dogs" specifically, it's no domestic animals. (rule 4) Which means I can't bring my cat either. Since my cat hisses and scratches unpredictably - which is just her way of showing affection, since she's very friendly and wouldn't hurt a flea - it's best she stay at home anyway. I'd hate to spend my day on the trail calling for her (disturbing my and others peace in the woods, while scaring any wildlife that maybe I could have otherwise photographed) and assuring other hikers that she's harmless after they've climbed trees in order to avoid her affection.

I think the safety-oriented stuff is silly.

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Could you clarify this? Or was this comment meant tic since you are involved in SAR?

I am serious about "silly." I don't want my gear inspected for its "reasonableness," I don't want my party to have to meet some minimum size (I travel alone), and I don't want to be queried on my plans outside the confines of the reservation system (which I do accept.) Lots and lots of places with much greater hazards than BSP see no need to regulate safety.

And yes, I would rather get up in the middle of the night to go help some unprepared, even grossly negligent, soul in the backcountry than submit to Rule 17 and all that it entails. I don't even mind seeing my tax dollars spent for the former purpose over the latter.

As Calvin Rutstrum quoted one of his wilderness acquaintances, on the subject of winter backcountry travel: "Now, dammit, we can holler for help and no one will hear us."

Apologies to ChrisB if I have turned this thread into a critiqe of BSP, but it actually is teaching me things about BSP. I just wanted to comment on reasons for dropping enjoyment of the park.
Let me just say to BSP lovers that I don't mean to insult anything about it's management style, especially since I'm not a Maine taxpayer. It reminds me of a freind's house, which was built in 1720. It is beautiful, and it is filled with period furniture. I love to look at it, and I'm thankful that my freinds keep it just the way it is. But I would NEVER want to live in it. You can't sit on any furniture. You can't use any of the things in the house. You can only look at it. If you use it as you would a home, you change it, which ruins what it is. So while I deeply appreciate BSP, and don't expect it to change, I think the reason for dropping enjoyment of the place is due to the management style.
For those who consider WMNF to be 'used to death', I just don't agree. I see beautiful, forested mountains and valleys. I am so thankful that WMNF is managed the way it is. I live 5 minutes from the Kancamagus Highway. On a whim I can head out to, say, Oliverian Brook, and not be turned away by gaurds because I don't have a reservation. Does the Oliverian Brook area suffer from a lack of regulation? No, it is a beautiful place.
Sardog, I agree with your points, espescially about responsability.

I think this is a good discussion whether one hates or loves the park - I can see there are some misconceptions about BSP.

No tax dollars are used in BSP. It is operated soley on various fees and the trust.

I've never had my gear inspected. And I hike and backpack solo all the time.

As for the "look but don't touch" analogy - I see the regs as simply LNT as it should be practised everywhere. Except BSP can and does enforce it.

I've also driven up to the gate and said, "watchya got?" and spent pleasant nights wherever space was available. Once I got a couple nights at Russell Pond. I normally reserve, but you can get in on a whim.

One possibility for the decline in demand at BSP, and this would not for the most part apply to members of this forum, is the change in the general public's expectations of what to expect in a campground. Over the last 20 or 30 years the type of "camper" and equipment used by car campers at State Parks and similar areas has changed drastically. I can remember in the 60s and 70s when I and my family would stop at a public campground and put up our little backpacker tent next to our car, and we would see folks around us with the occasional Coleman Latern and 8x10 wall tents. Now if I should go to such an area (and mostly I don't) I see mamoth RVs, electric generators, people watching televiaion, etc. I was astounded when I stayed one night outside BSP at the Abol Bridge Campground after coming out of the 100 Mile Wilderness! Wow, huge monstrosities in every direction. And me in my little tent. Luckily we weren't run over by some guy in a 40' RV who would hardly have noticed us.

Now I don't give a hoot about these folks or what stuff they drag along. But I think unlike most parks, BSP has refused to give in to this trend and I am very happy with that. The closest you might get to that level of creature comfort in BSP is Daicey Pond, which I tend to leave alone. If BSP had been like most parks, the perimeter roads would all be paved and there would be hook-ups at all the road accessible campgrounds.

Note that this trend has nothing to do with backcountry camping. I think the people who hike up to one of the places away from the road, like Chimney Pond, look the same as they did 40 years ago (except they wear synthetics instead of cotton ). And I like that. No way can anyone say that about the folks you might meet on the Franconia Ridge.

I would just say to sardog1: come on up and check it out. Leave the dog and enjoy the moose grazing outside your shelter. You might come back again.

Pb

Over the last 20 or 30 years the type of "camper" and equipment used by car campers at State Parks and similar areas has changed drastically.

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That is all too true...if you happen to take a look at the State Budget submitted by Governor Baldacci, The Department of Conservation, Bureau of Parks and Lands, has proposed a reduction in funding by cutting lifeguards and requested an increase in funding to add RV sites as a way to generate revenue. The State Parks don't bring in anything close to the amount of money it takes to run them.

Papabear and Twigeater, thanks for all the info. I assumed BSP would be funded by Maine state taxes. I'm glad that you were allowed in 'on a whim', but it can't possibly be accessable enough for me. There was a surprise treat of northern lights on friday night. I grabbed my stuff and into the forest I went to enjoy a very beautiful natural phenomenon, despite -20F temp. I was in the forest 15 minutes after noticing the aurora and deciding to go into the forest. This sort of thing happens often with me. The WMNF is a central part of my life, and its' accessability does not deminish its' beauty, IMO.
Also, I have a German Shepard, who looks much like Sardog's dog, who used to hike with me before he got too old. One day we came upon a bull moose in Carter Notch. Einstein (dog) just sat there while we all checked out each other. After taking a few pictures, we walked right by the big fellow. He just stood there and watched us walk by.
Another time, Einstein woke me up early one morning as we slept in our tent. He stood up and started sniffing loudly, so I opened the door to see this big cow moose looking down at us. We both laid there with our heads out the door looking at each other for a minute, then she went on her way. I would not have had that wonderful close encounter if Einstein didn't wake me.
I know there have been heated threads about dogs, and I'm not interested in another one, but just know that a good dog is not a bad thing in the forest.
Long live BSP and WMNF just the way they are, it's good to have both.

twigeater said:

I've never had my gear inspected. And I hike and backpack solo all the time.

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From the BSP Authority's Winter Camping in Baxter State Park :

"Solo overnight trips and solo above-treeline travel are not permitted. For safety reasons, the minimum size for an overnight winter group in Baxter is three people at the roadside campgrounds (four people if the party intends to go to Chimney Pond, Russell Pond or anywhere above-treeline in the Park)[.]

EDIT: Here's the equipment inspection list, from the same page:

"Required Equipment

Because of the likelihood of extreme weather conditions in Baxter State Park in winter, and because rescue of injured persons may be delayed for hours or days, the following equipment is required as part of every winter visitor's basic kit.

(A) Winter camping gear (personal):

1. Showshoes or skis, and repair materials
2. Insulated pacs or mountain boots (not summer boots)
3. Sleeping bag rated for winter conditions
4. Sunglasses or snow goggles
5. Pack
6. Matches or other fire-starting device
7. Food (with two-day reserve)
8. Warm clothing
9. Topographic map and compass
10. Flashlight or headlamp


(B) Winter camping gear (one (1) per group):

1. First aid kit
2. Axe and camp saw
3. Outdoor thermometer and wind-chill chart
4. Snow shovel


(C) Winter mountain hiking or climbing or ski-mountaineering or snowboarding gear (in addition to winter camping gear):

1. Ice axe
2. Crampons
3. Helmet (required for all activities above treeline)
4. Climbing rope (one per party of two/four)
5. Sleeping bag or bivi sack (one per party of two/four)
6. Climbing equipment appropriate to terrain
7. Baxter State Park highly recommends that you bring appropriate avalanche assessment and safety equipment, along with a competent working knowledge of how to use it.
. . .
Failure to meet these procedures may result in the denial of access to the Park by the Ranger on duty. For your safety and ours, please be prepared. All winter parties must carry their winter reservations with them and all members must have a photo ID available to present to any BSP Ranger upon request."

They don't seem to insist on "axe and camp saw" anymore, but the very excellent Baxter rangers do make sure we're equipped properly to go above treeline. (I wonder why they didn't change the gear requirements when they changed the group size. )

We've been up there when the SAR folks have been practicing, and they made for excellent campsite sharers at Chimney.

Required Equipment

I've never gotten to Baxter. Do they really check to see if you are carrying all of this gear? There must be some subjective assessment of each party.

I don't want to start "the dog" war either, just wanted to point out that it's "domestic animals" and not just dogs that aren't allowed in the park.

Yes winter rules are stricter - I didn't realize you were referring to winter rules, as you mentioned "rule 17" which is in the regular rules.
Anyway, we just make sure we have all the "required" stuff - which we would have anyway - plus I make up an emergency list of all the members in the group for each person. I haven't done Katahdin in winter, so I can't say how the "gear inspection" or whatever goes for that.

I've been to the bunkhouses at Trout Brook, Roaring Brook, South Branch Pond and Nesowadnuhunk in winter. The only time we saw rangers every day was at Roaring Brook. The other places we rarely see another soul, including rangers. Also, only had my permit checked at Roaring Brook.

I believe the group size regs are reasonable considering the remoteness of the park. For example, at Nesowadnehunk, we spent 2 nights there and never saw another person. No rangers, nothing. (which is great!) But, had someone gotten hurt (I fell and cracked my head on ice, a tree fell on the outhouse) help is not easily gotten. A five mile trek out, then 20 or more miles driving on paper company roads, then 20 or more miles to Millinocket...I think one to stay with the injured and one to go for help is reasonable...

Besides...if I want a spur of the moment trip with no worries about reservations, fees, etc...I can jump in my truck and head to any one of Maine's gorgeous public lands...Baxter isn't the only park, but my favorite.

Not a bad thing, imo

Back in the 70's we'd go to Katahdin Stream in May and be the only persons there. 'Pick out the site you want', is what we'd hear at the gate. How much that had changed by the mid 90's. I know I'm being selfish when I say it's good the visitor count is heading down, but I miss the days when we'd see more moose than people.