Long distance nutrition

> I am really bad at staying hydrated in the winter

I make it a rule to stop and eat and drink at least once an hour, whether I am hungry/thirsty or not. Keeps me adequately fed and hydrated.

I also carry a 500cc insulated bottle on my belt (more in the pack, total 1.5-2.5 liters). (A 1 liter bottle is too big.) This make it very easy to drink with only a minimal stop. If the bottle gets in the way, it can be carried in my pack until it is appropriate to return it to my belt.

I also make my own electrolyte drink. Has the advantage that I can alter the components independently (unlike diluting commercial drinks). The price is also a little better. Recipe below.

Doug


My recipe for electrolyte drink:

1 liter water ............................................ 1000 gram
1-3 tblsp =.5-1.5 oz sugar (sucrose) .... 14-43 gram ........ 1.4-4.3%
1/4 tsp Morton Lite Salt
............. K ....................................................... 340 mg
............. Na ..................................................... 290 mg

The sugar is more to speed absorption than for fuel. About 7% sugar optimizes absorption, more than ~8% will slow absorption and give one a stomache ache. This 7% assumes that one is not eating any food--in practice, I use a lower percentage to allow for sugars in food. I have actually used anywhere from about 1.4% to 4%. On a long multi-day hike, I might skip the sugar entirely to save weight. (Pure sugar is not a very weight-efficient way to bring calories.)

This formulation is based on Gookinaid and the article summarized below.
-----------------

For reference, here are some commercial drinks:
-----------------
Gookinaid:
1 liter water 1000 gram
Glucose 43 gram
K 426 mg
Na 295 mg
Ca 8.5 mg
Magnesium 6 mg
Phosphate 117 mg
Vitamin C 430 %
Bill Gookin is/was a biochemist and marathon runner. He tried to make his drink match the composition of sweat. REI carries it.
<http://www.gookinaid.com>
<http://members.fortunecity.com/okinhim/gookhome.html>
------------------

Gatorade:
1 liter water 1000 gram
Carbs (mostly sugars sucrose and dextrose) 64 gram
Na 470 mg
K 128 mg
-----------------

And a summary of a magazine article on electrolyte drinks:
El cheapo electrolyte drink:
1 liter water (=1000 gm)
1/3 cup sugar (=66 gm =6.6%)
1/4 tsp. salt
1 packet of unsweetened Kool-Aid mix (add to taste)

Warning: excessive sodium and sugar concentrations above 8%
can impair fluid retention.

"Granulated sugar (sucrose) works great, as do maltodextrin
and glucose (dextrose or corn sugar)."
Fructose slows absorption.

Source:
Kelly Cordes, "Liquid Lunch", Rock and Ice 102, Aug/Sept 2000,
p 52.

Author info:
Kelly Cordes' exercise physiology masters's thesis at the
University of Montanna delt with hydration and thermoregulation.

DP - rock on! you nailed it!! i'm copying and saving your post!!!

DougPaul said:

My recipe for electrolyte drink:

1 liter water 1000 gram
1-3 tblsp =.5-1.5 oz sugar (sucrose) 14-43 gram 1.4-4.3%
1/4 tsp Morton Lite Salt
K 340 mg
Na 290 mg

The sugar is more to speed absorption than for fuel. About 7% sugar optimizes absorption, more than ~8% will slow absorption and give one a stomache ache. This 7% assumes that one is not eating any food--in practice, I use a lower percentage to allow for sugars in food. I have actually used anywhere from about 1.4% to 4%. On a long multi-day hike, I might skip the sugar entirely to save weight. (Pure sugar is not a very weight-efficient way to bring calories.)

Click to expand...

So where does one get plain Potassium and Sodium? I remember from school that these can't safely mix with water directly.

> So where does one get plain Potassium and Sodium? I remember from school that these can't safely mix with water directly.

Elemental postassium and sodium (lithium too) would make great fire starters under wet conditions.
(In case anyone does not know, these metals will spontaneously break into flame when exposed to water or even water vapor in the air. They must be stored under oil.)

Morton Lite Salt contains potassium and sodium in the form of sodium chloride (table salt) and potassium chloride. Available at your local grocery store.

Sorry--the *%*@!* formatting in the BBS removed the indenting and spacing: the K and Na lines are the contents of the 1/4 tsp of Morton Lite Salt. Should be:

1 liter water...............................................1000 gram
1-3 tblsp = .5-1.5 oz sugar (sucrose) 14-43 gram............1.4-4.3%
1/4 tsp Morton Lite Salt
...........K.........................................................340 mg
...........Na.......................................................290 mg

BTW, you can also get pure potassium chloride at the grocery store if you wish to adust both the sodium and potassium concentrations independently.

I think I'll go back and edit my original message to see if I can make the tables clearer. Grrrr
Doug

DougPaul said:

> ....I also make my own electrolyte drink. Has the advantage that I can alter the components independently (unlike diluting commercial drinks).....

Click to expand...

Why not add a crushed Tum or Rolaid to give it a bit of calcium? Lack of this leads to muscle cramping for me.

ALso, I will dilute commercial drinks, while ADDING a salt-substitute. Net effect is pretty much similar: I get the preportions I want... You see, I like blue gatorade. I'll never mistake it for my pee bottle... Unlike the 'standard' garotade..... Oh, once you taste it, you realize the mistake... but that's another story for another thread.

E. Schlimmer said:

Some great advice has been given in the replies but I have a dissenting view about the amount of calories your heart rate monitor said you expended...

Click to expand...

You may be correct. The calories expended weren't necessarily the point of the thread. I was mostly looking for advice on how to keep chuggin' after about 7 hours of moderate hiking. Thanks all for your advice.

Pete,

> Why not add a crushed Tum or Rolaid to give it a bit of calcium? Lack of this leads to muscle cramping for me.

Sure, if you need it. Unlikely to harm you if you don't.

Gookinaid contains some.

Calcium carbonate seems to be the preferred form of calcium. Tums appears to be calcium carbonate, Rolaids appears to be a calcium carbonate and magnesium hydroxide. (Ingredients from the web, so might not be reliable.)

Calcium carbonate pills might be cheaper, but harder to find at a store out in the boonies.


> ALso, I will dilute commercial drinks, while ADDING a salt-substitute.

Sure, this works too, but I'll bet it costs a lot more than my recipe.

Some number of years back, Consumer Reports reviewed sports drinks and ended up recommending half-strength fruit juice.

Any method of making up an appropriate solution is fine. My recipe only costs a few cents/liter. A number of the commercial drinks are on the order of a dollar/liter.


> Re pee bottles

I prefer to use a different shape bottle (ie square) to distinguish it from my water bottles (cylindrical). Easier to distinguish in the dark. But again, as long as each individual has a system that works, then all is fine. Besides, drinking a bit of urine is hardly likely to be fatal...

Doug

"Gookinade...," is that politically correct?

> "Gookinade...," is that politically correct?

The man's name is Bill Gookin.
And he designed and markets a *aid drink.

http://www.gookinaid.com
http://members.fortunecity.com/okinhim/gookhome.html

Doug

DougPaul said:

> So where does one get plain Potassium and Sodium? I remember from school that these can't safely mix with water directly.

Elemental postassium and sodium (lithium too) would make great fire starters under wet conditions.
(In case anyone does not know, these metals will spontaneously break into flame when exposed to water or even water vapor in the air. They must be stored under oil.)

Morton Lite Salt contains potassium and sodium in the form of sodium chloride (table salt) and potassium chloride. Available at your local grocery store.

Sorry--the *%*@!* formatting in the BBS removed the indenting and spacing: the K and Na lines are the contents of the 1/4 tsp of Morton Lite Salt. Should be:

1 liter water...............................................1000 gram
1-3 tblsp = .5-1.5 oz sugar (sucrose) 14-43 gram............1.4-4.3%
1/4 tsp Morton Lite Salt
...........K.........................................................340 mg
...........Na.......................................................290 mg

BTW, you can also get pure potassium chloride at the grocery store if you wish to adust both the sodium and potassium concentrations independently.

I think I'll go back and edit my original message to see if I can make the tables clearer. Grrrr
Doug

Click to expand...

DP - Would adding an artificial sweetener have any negative effect on your mixture? Just curious

> Would adding an artificial sweetener have any negative effect on your mixture?

Adding? My guess is no, but I've never tried it.

But if you mean substitute for the sugar, then yes, I expect it would have a small negative effect. The primary purpose of the sugar is to speed absorbtion of the water. I gave an amount range for sugar, you can use the lower amount if you wish. That said, I have occasionally used only the Lite salt (no sugar) and it still works--presumably just somewhat slower than the full mix. (When hiking, I always carry a small container of the Lite salt in case I need the electrolytes.)

If flavor is an issue, the pure Lite salt version tastes (surprise!) salty and with sugar the taste is sweet and salty. (The potassium chloride has a slightly stronger but otherwise similar flavor as does sodium chloride (table salt).) The flavor for my mix is fairly mild.

The critical parts of an electrolyte drink are the water and the electrolyte (sodium, potassium, and (if you need it) calcium). The sugar/carbohydrates are just tuning with a few calories. You can add color and/or flavor and still keep the primary function.

Similar things to look at: Oral Rehydration Therapy (ORT) (many formulations) and Pedialyte (frozen flavored electrolye for kids).

Doug

E. Schlimmer said:

Some great advice has been given in the replies but I have a dissenting view about the amount of calories your heart rate monitor said you expended.

Click to expand...

I hadn't paid much attention to that opart, but I tend to agree. Unless those three peaks were not adjacent, and each was a 3-5000 foot climb.. for a total of at least 10,000 feet.. Ir if the person doing it was very heavy.

E. Schlimmer said:

To burn 6,800 calories a 155-pound person would have to cross country ski an average rate of 8 mph for more than 7 hours straight (estimated). A 56-mile ski! That's quite a workout; probably more of a workout than when we hike.
per hour.

Click to expand...

Ahhh, so you've done the Canadian Ski Marathon... Ski 50 miles with a full pack, sleep a night in a farmer's field, wake up early and ski another 50 miles.... That is miles, not kilometers. Physically, it is the toughest thing I've done. Tougher than cycling 175 miles in a day. But now, here's the weird thing. Yeah, I burn a lot of calories. At 190 pounds and carrying a 25 pound pack (and many thousands of feet of climbing), I'm sure I burn well over 6800 calories. Yet, I probably don't consume half of that. I snack on peanuts, bagel pieces, cookies, etc during. For supper I have a single freeze dried meal. As long as I drink, my body is pretty good at going into its reserves to supply energy.

The only time I'd worry about providing the amount of calories that I'm consuming is when doing an extended 'thing'. I would say over four days, or more. I say this, because on a 4 day cycling trip, averaging 125 miles a day, I found myself eating very little. (Yeah, I did end up a few pounds less at the end)

Bottom line, for me, I can go a long time with very little additional food. Is it just me? Is it because I frequently do long things? Dunno.

Oh yeah... And the olive oil? Why didn't i use that in my 500 mile bike ride? Well, it rained the first day, so I used it all to re-oil my chain.

DougPaul said:

> Would adding an artificial sweetener have any negative effect on your mixture?

Adding? My guess is no, but I've never tried it.

But if you mean substitute for the sugar, then yes, I expect it would have a small negative effect. The primary purpose of the sugar is to speed absorbtion of the water. I gave an amount range for sugar, you can use the lower amount if you wish. That said, I have occasionally used only the Lite salt (no sugar) and it still works--presumably just somewhat slower than the full mix. (When hiking, I always carry a small container of the Lite salt in case I need the electrolytes.)

If flavor is an issue, the pure Lite salt version tastes (surprise!) salty and with sugar the taste is sweet and salty. (The potassium chloride has a slightly stronger but otherwise similar flavor as does sodium chloride (table salt).) The flavor for my mix is fairly mild.

The critical parts of an electrolyte drink are the water and the electrolyte (sodium, potassium, and (if you need it) calcium). The sugar/carbohydrates are just tuning with a few calories. You can add color and/or flavor and still keep the primary function.

Similar things to look at: Oral Rehydration Therapy (ORT) (many formulations) and Pedialyte (frozen flavored electrolye for kids).

Doug

Click to expand...

No, I wasn't suggesting doing away with the sugar (since it seems to be a necessary part of the formula) I was more wondering that since I like sweet drinks, if splenda could be added to the mix, without any negative effects. My guess is that it wouldn't make a difference, but you seem to be checked out on this subject so I thought I'd ask. I think I'm gonna try the gookinaid - I was surprised at how reasonably priced the kilo can is... Seems much cheaper than gatorade, although I haven't yet done a side by side analysis.

J

Jasonst said:

No, I wasn't suggesting doing away with the sugar (since it seems to be a necessary part of the formula) I was more wondering that since I like sweet drinks, if splenda could be added to the mix, without any negative effects. My guess is that it wouldn't make a difference, but you seem to be checked out on this subject so I thought I'd ask. I think I'm gonna try the gookinaid - I was surprised at how reasonably priced the kilo can is... Seems much cheaper than gatorade, although I haven't yet done a side by side analysis.

J

Click to expand...

You can also go up to about 7% sugar. (I got a stomach ache when I combined this with food--one of the reasons that I now keep the sugar below 4%. Cure for the stomach ache was just to drink some pure water.)

The flavor at 4% is moderately sweet. Try it and see. Or as an experiment, take a liter of water, add the 1/4 tsp Morton Lite Salt and 1tblsp of sugar (1.4%) and taste it. Add another tblsp of sugar and taste, repeat until you reach sweet-enough or 5 tblsp (7%).

I typically carry electrolyte drink, some pure water, and (dry) mix. If you want to try the full strength, I suggest you do this at first so you can dilute the drink if it is too strong. And when you run out of electrolyte, just make some more. (The pure water is also useful for first aid.)

I've tried both Gatorade and Gookinaid. (I prefered Gookinaid to Gatorade.) Both tasted ok and did the job. Didn't like the cost or the difficulty in adjusting the mix. Check out the Gookinaid web sites (in previous post)--lots of good info. He seems to prefer glucose, but other sources are happy with sucrose (table sugar). (I have been told that one can get glucose in health food stores.)

Note that a serving of Gookinaid is 8oz, so it comes to about 55 cents/liter in the 1 kilo tub. Still cheaper than many of the others.

Doug

E. Sclimmer,
You da man, what is your opinion on this?

Lately, for long day hikes (ie. 12 hours with lots of vertical) I've been trying this:

Lots of carbs and at least one day of complete rest the day before.

High carb, normal protein, low fat breakfast.

Sugar, sugar and more sugar on the trail (the equivalent of one dried apricot half every 10 mins.) until the summit, avoiding fat which might slow absorption. On the climb my HR varies from 70-90% of my max. (With a hike like Allen Mountainthere may be hours spent at 60% before and after the actual climb)

Roast beef sandwhich, nuts, sesame snaps, protein bars, chocolate on the summit and on the way back to the car.

More sugar within 1-2 hours after the hike.

A little extra protein that night and the next day.
(I drink lots of water all day of course)
So, what do you think?