Cold Hands

Okay - I need some help. I have always had problems with cold extremities which has made winter hiking a bit of a challenge for me. I have solved the problem of cold/numb toes with toe warmers between liner socks and smart wools. Since doing that, I am no longer plagued with cold toes/feet.

However, it is a different story with my hands. I am sure that part of my problem is aggravated by carpal tunnel, but I am having increasing difficulty keeping my hands/fingers warm while hiking. This Saturday was no exception. I started out with a liner glove and a double fleece mitten. That was okay, but it took about 10 minutes for my fingers to warm up. Then, when I stopped to make some adjustments to my pack and take some pictures (needing to take off the mittens), my fingers got cold again, so that it took at least another 10 minutes for them to warm up again (this was after putting handwarmers inside of the liners right on the palm of my hand. And I am having these problems while Sapblatt is hiking WITHOUT gloves!!! At the summit of Pierce my hands/fingers got cold again (having to make a pit stop as well as get more gear out of my pack and eat a bit). This time, knowing that we were headed into colder conditions and more wind, I put on a pair of OR overmitts on top of the liners and fleece mittens. This did NOT work, and I think it was because there was not enough air space between the fleece mittens and overmitts.

I needed to stop to pee again which I dreaded, because I knew my fingers would be very cold. This time, I tried the handwarmers (directly on my palms), a pair of EMS Wind Pro Power Stretch Gloves, and the overmitts. This was the best combination of the day, and for the most part, my hands and fingers stayed fairly warm. However, I still experienced 3 times when my fingers went numb and then took a while to warm back up.

I find this very frustrating and I know that it could become a more serious problem. In fact, when the feeling comes back into my fingers, it is somewhat painful. I also try windmilling my arms to help with the circulation - this helps a bit but not significantly. I have tried placing my hands under my armpits but even this isn't a total answer, 'cause I would have to stand there for 10 minutes before my fingers really warmed up. This method is problematic in winter when I don't even want to unzip my jacket.

Of course, it was really ironic that once we got below treeline and were almost halfway back to Crawford Notch, that my hands were so warm I could have taken my gloves off and have nothing on them!!!

So - any suggestions for a better combination of gloves, mittens, liners, or overmitts? I am getting to the point where I don't even want to stop to eat or take pictures or put on or take off gear to be more comfortable.

Oh - here's a bit more information about my circulation problems. I am currently sitting in my office typing this and my fingers are quite cold. It's about 65 degrees in my office (not overly warm - but not terribly cold either). Just my hands are cold. I even had one friend tell me that he thought my hands were "dead" when he put them between his.

Kris,

I would see your doctor and possibly ask about Raynoud's Syndrome. I had a friend who had this disease and she struggled with cold hands even when indoors.

In the meantime, try fashioning a fleece layer with velcro that will attch to your wrist, where you can place a handwarmer right next to the vessels carrying blood to your fingertips. Do this in addition to placing a pair of handwarmers inside your mittens. It might help to warm the blood before it gets to your fingers.

Worth a try anyway. Good Luck, cold extremities are the worst.

sli74

Blood flows away from extremities when your CORE body temperature drops... could that be part of the problem-- I mean you did say your hands got warm below treeline?

Perhaps (I don't have any first 'hand' experience nor have I read it), but your could try latex gloves as a vapor barrier.

couple random thoughts

This is second "hand" (ARGH) because it's my wife, not me, with this problem, but she just needs two things: 1) more time to get her metabolism up to the point where her core is heating her extremities, and 2) WAY more layers than me to warm her core. I know most people need to de-layer, but are you maybe de-layering too soon?
Also, I find that when my poles are too long (hence hands above heart when hiking uphill), my typically hot hands get cold.
Also also, I agree with all of the above posts... though for most people with mild Raynaud's the solution is just to stay warm all the time, use hand warmers etc. Meds are reserved for more difficult cases, and are not entirely without side effects.
Good luck!
Chris

LittleBear said:

Okay - I need some help.

Click to expand...

For what it's worth, you're not alone. Sounds just like me. We have Raynaud's Syndrome. There was another thread about this last year:

http://vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4419

Here's a link to a web site that discusses the condition:

http://www.lef.org/protocols/prtcl-128.shtml

Unfortunately, the web page begins with "Raynaud's syndrome ... has no known cause or cure."

I try to keep moving, take short breaks if I have to, drink and eat small amounts at frequent intervals, and try very hard to keep my hands dry. Raynaud's can kick in if you start eating, which requires blood to go to your digestive track, and drink cold liquid, which requires blood to heat it up. Your body can respond by shutting down the flow to the extremities. I can get Raynaud's at 55 degrees at a summit if I am not careful! I carry gloves and hand warmers year round.

You might ask, "how do you keep moving and eat and drink a lot?" I carry food and water outside my pack, so I can get at it quickly and easily. Having big pockets and an insulated water bottle holder helps a lot. Good luck.

This stuff does work on your hands and feet, but it does smell a bit nasty and has a pasty consistency. You might not want to use it going to work, but might be worth considering for hiking: Warm Cream
Regards,
Marty

A couple tricks for warming hands.

While walking, open and close your hand... around your pole if carrying them, or just grabbing air if not. This helps increase circulation.

Swing your arm around, windmill fashion. This forces the blood to the hand, and expands the capilaries, and more blood will flow through the hands.

Eat jalapeno, seranno, chipotle, etc. Eat them until your mouth is in pain. The hot peppers cause the blood vessels in the extremeties to expand, which lets more blood flow through. I found this out accidentally, after cycling home at -30, and having numb hands when I got in the house... but I was real hungry..

Note that all of these assume that your core temperature is plenty warm.

Following up on what Remix said - about core robbing extremities - i must say that unless you have some kind of medical problem i believe the core may be your issue. Once after i clawed my way up Hancock mid winter i could not get my hands (feet were also cold to a lesser degree) to warm up no matter what did up there and I had a barrage of hand stuff with me. Then the thought ocurred to me (i had recently listened to an NPR special about a lady swimming in Antartica) to pull out my down vest and put it on. VOILA! - my hands immediately warmed up...

Old saying: if your feet are cold, put on a hat. Applies to your hands too.

Your extremities are heated by excess body core heat*. (body core = everything except your arms and legs) Thus additional insulation on your body and head will help your hands and feet. This will work, but it can take 20+ minutes for the body to warm up and pump the excess heat out to your hands and feet. No amount of hand and foot insulation will keep them warm if your body is cold.

* Your core organs and brain must stay within a few degrees of normal body temp if you are to survive. Reducing heat loss when cold by reducing circulation to the extremities is a vital survival mechanism. Pumping excess heat out to the surface and extremities (and sweating) are similarly vital mechanisms.

The ideal winter hiking body core temp is slightly cool to slightly warm, but not enough to sweat. (Keep your insulation as dry as possible.) Adjust your clothing and activity level to match your body heat production, don't copy someone else's insulation. Different people put out widely differing amounts of heat when active.

For hand insulation, many wear a glove liner under mittens. When you need dexterity, you keep the glove liners on to keep your hands warm until you can put the mittens back on. I personally like wind-blocking fleece gloves and rarely need mittens. Good dexterity with warmth. (I have warm hands.) For mittens, use a mitten (insulating) liner with a mitten shell. Hands sweat and the liners wil get wet--carry spares and change them as needed. (You can dry the wet ones inside your shirt or inside a sleeping bag at night if need be.) Wool is still one of the better options for mitten liners--it stays warmer than almost anything else when it gets damp. Also check out Dachstein mittens--very warm heavy boiled wool. Vapor barrier liners (VBLs) can be used on both hands and feet to keep one's insulation dry.

If you have Raynauds syndrome (see a doctor for diagnoses), there is a classical-conditioning technique devised by Dr. Murray Hamlet (an expert on cold problems) which helps many. Some refs:

Search on "Raynaud's syndrome" "Murray Hamlet":
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="raynaud's+syndrome"+"Murray+Hamlet
%22&btnG=Google+Search

Several references:
http://www.mothernature.com/Library/Bookshelf/Books/47/112.cfm
http://www.mothernature.com/Library/Bookshelf/Books/16/102.cfm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_241-242/ai_107201193

Searching on "Raynaud's syndrome" "warm water" brings up even more references:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q="Raynaud's+syndrome"+"warm+wate
r%22&btnG=Search

Doug

Thanks for all the info and suggestions so far.

As far as my core temperature goes, I was plenty warm throughout the hike -I never felt chilled, nor did I take off or add any layers - and my feet and toes were fine all day and I wore my regular leather hiking boots instead of my plastics. I had a fleece hat on until above treeline, when I put on a balaclava with face mask and cinched down the hood on my jacket, and put my goggles on. My face got warm hiking over to Ike, and I had to keep readjusting my face mask from totally covering my nose, mouth, chin, to pulling it down to cool off a bit and breathe better, and then pull it back over my nose.

My hands don't sweat much (even when very warm). I do wear glove liners which I keep on when I want to take a photo or eat or do something else that requires some dexterity. The problem is that the liners don't come anywhere close to keeping my hands warm until I can get my mittens back on. Then it takes a long time to warm my fingers back up. I have tried to windmill my arms and it helps a bit, but not as much as I would like. I have tried hand warmers around my wrists - but I don't find that it does anything.

It is possible that I have Raynaud's - but I don't exhibit the classic symptom of white fingertips. There is a woman in my office who has Raynaud's and her fingertips get white just walking to her car from her house on a cold day!!

I bought a pair of gloves from Kittery Trading Post a couple of years ago that were supposed to keep my hands warm to -50 degrees. I wore them on my Baxter trip (the temps were -35), and they didn't work well at all. KTP gave me my money back. I probably would do better with mittens, but whenever I go shopping, I can only find gloves (or mittens in the wrong size).

Another thing to take into account is what you are eating. Foods high in protein (beef jerkey, nuts, etc) are harder to digest. To aid digestion of these foods, the body sends more blood to the stomach. More blood to the stomach = less blood in the extremities.

What are you doing with your mittens when you take them off to eat? If you stuff them inside your coat they will stay warm. If you leave them out they'll lose their heat and you'll be putting cold mittens onto cold hands.
-vegematic

I often hike in the 10-20 degree range with only a long sleeve poly shirt, baseball hat, light shell pants, but with heavy fleece mittens, until an hour or so into the hike, then changing to glove or mitten liners. I sweat to the point I change tops 1 or 2 times a day no matter what. My feet are warm but not fingers. I have always blamed it on constantly wetting and chilling my fingers making snow years ago, never badly, but often to the point of not being able to use them. Almost like trench foot of the hands. ( I had trench foot once and never wish that again.)Since then I have never been able to keep them warm. Any one else have a problem like this?

Fuel!

I was waiting for the food commentary to come in; thank you, Double Bow.

I have a very sugar-sensitive metabolism and I have found outdoor activity requires self-knowledge. I usually end up getting in a good meal an hour before cranking and pounding a Snickers/whatever right before hitting the trail. Works wonders.

I also keep the multiple layers switching up as I heat & chill.

Had a great ski today! Learned a lot! Hope you do better, too.

--M.

Yes - I agree, food is fuel!!! However, I experienced the worst cold/numbness of the day not 1 hour after consuming cheese, pepperoni, crackers, and Milano cookies and hot chocolate. Maybe I'm just doomed to have cold hands and feet.

Hmm... I wonder if there's a way to channel hot flashes to my hands .

core temp

Sticking with the core temp idea, one more thing to try...
When my dad used to put me on stationary deer watch for hours at a time, I discovered putting a handwarmer in my inner layer shirt pocket, directly over my heart to keep my core warm. Short of making me sweat, my toes and fingers stayed plenty warm even in way below subfreezing temps without moving around at all.

Kris, your story reads exactly like mine. I’ve had the same problem since I started winter hiking and am still searching for solutions. So far, my best results have come from some combination of liner gloves, handwarmers, double-thick wool mittens and OR overmitts. I always use the liners, add the handwarmers and mittens at the start if it’s really cold and use the overmitts when necessary to keep everything else dry.

I avoid liners that are constricting. Capilene is pretty good but I really like the Smartwool liners I recently picked up. I seem to do better with wool than fleece, especially the double-thick wool mittens. A few times the wool has iced up on the outside but were still warm inside.

I’m starting to believe in the core body temperature effect mentioned above. Recently, I made it to a summit with just liners and the overmitts and my fingers were fine all the way. Within minutes, however, the numbness started, first on the hand where I removed the overmitt but eventually the other one as well. This was not Washington, either - it was a 3,800’ sheltered summit only 1,500’ higher than the trailhead so it couldn’t have been much colder on top. I think the lesson is to remember to layer up before the summit. Twenty minutes after I started moving again, the sting was gone and everything was fine.

As for the problem with food breaks and such, one thing that has worked well on several occasions is breaking out an extra pair of handwarmers at the trailhead or on the way up and keeping them ready in your pockets. At the first sign of numbness during a break, stick your hands in your pockets for instant heat. It works much better than armpits or fumbling for the warmers in your mittens. When eating or doing other chores, you can limit exposure by alternating hands.

I wish I could find a pair of vapor barrier liner gloves since I’m also convinced some of the problem results from evaporative cooling after removing mittens or shells. I’ve seen these VBL mitts but they’re quite expensive and don’t solve the problem of what happens when you have to take them off. After trying their socks, I’m a new fan of VBLs.

My fingers are usually the first part of my body to get cold, typically after summitting when I'm not generating as many megawatts as on the hike up. I'll either add a layer underneath my shell jacket or add a pair of fleece pants under my shell pants and put on warmer mittens. I find that warmer pants make a big difference in my overall temperature and comfort. Think about the surface area of two legs and how well they transfer heat to the surroundings, like huge radiators. If you can keep from losing heat there, you'll have plenty left over for your toes and fingers.

John S said:

I wish I could find a pair of vapor barrier liner gloves since

Click to expand...

Someone else suggested this but Latex Gloves work as VBLs and you could try a pair of them. If you remind me, John, I will bring you a couple of pairs of large latex or non-latex synthetic gloves from lab when I see you in Feb for the Carter trip.

sli74

type of glove liners?

My hands also get very cold, I get cold easily in general, and experience the same drop in temp shortly after eating. The glove liners I used for spring and fall cycling weren't worth squat in December hiking, so I recently bought a pair of smart wool glove liners, as that seems to be the best insulating layer for the rest of my body (feet, legs, torso). I've been happy with them so far. EMS carries them. Hope this info is helpful!