Have you had enough to drink?

Knowing how detail-oriented and inquisitive VFTT'rs are, I thought my fellow readers might be interested in some information about how we don't adapt as well to cold as we do to heat. There is an interesting story in the Winter 2006 issue of the University of NH Magazine that was just delivered to my desk here at UNH that highlights research done on cold weather and "our perception of thirst." Basically, the article briefly describes research done by ice climber/UNH associate professor Robert Kenefick. "The study confirmed what [Kenefick] suspected: in the cold, perception of thirst goes down." Basically, "this is caused by the narrowing of blood vessels and the brain thinks that the body has plenty of fluid." And oddly, the more dehydrated we are the less we recognize thirst. For info junkies, more complete info from this study has been published in the journal "Medicine & Science in Sports and Exercise." Cool, huh?

That is way cool. Thanks for that info.

I'm definitely not as thirsty in the Winter compared to summer. Gotta force more liquids into me I guess. Means I should be carrying more water too...


-Shayne

I also have to remind myself often to drink. What helps for me is drinking a big glass of water on my way to the trailhead so I'm well hydrated when I begin.

My experiences have held true to that research. In a sense, I feel less "needy" in the winter time. Add really high altitudes to that and I also sense less hunger. It almost gives you a feeling of invincibility - you need no water, no food... and then the fatigue really hits you

It's funny how the body doesn't adapt well to these conditions and that just leaves you dehydrated and out of energy.

Winter time is very much about being proactive than reactive. By the time you react it could be too late sometimes.

On the rare occasions that I do get out hiking in the winter, I do notice that when I force myself to drink, I end up realizing how thirsty I really am and I always end up drinking longer.

Speaking of, I need to go get some water.

grouseking

Do you have the citation? The only article I found was published in 2004, which seems a tad old.

I never have this problem - always thristy with the dry air - the problem I have is peeing too much - when hiking - not a problem - but when climbing -bit trickier - but can (and has) been done

now you wonder where all that yellow ice comes from

It sounds to me like the study just agrees with/confirms what I was taught around 1974 by winter school, an "Outdoors Medicine" course by the school medical department, and/or Dr Murray Hamlett:

* The sensation of thirst is reduced in the cold. By the time you are thirsty, you are somewhat dehydrated.

* One should output .5-1 liter of urine per day. Color should be clear or light straw. (However, urine can be colored by certain foods.)

* A simpler rule of thumb is that you should drink enough that you have to pee several times during the day. Same color issues as above.

Doug

I learned this important lesson a couple of weeks ago on Waumbek. I bonked bad. I had to push mtself up that last pitch to the summit. I dont blame it on hydration since I sucked the magic mix (DougPauls el-chepo electrolyte drink) down like nothing (I had downed 1 and a half liters by summit.) But food was a different matter. I had eaten only a light breakfast and then NOTHING till I got to the top of Waumbek. This weekend Im going prepared. Peanut M&Ms, Granola bars, Fig Newtons, a decent sized lunch complete with cookies for dessert. Ill be well fed as well as probably being pretty popular with the group . Ill top that off with my customary 3 liters of fluids.

Brian

I almost always forget to drink, then wonder why I either hit the wall or have a headache by the end of the day. Thus I have to force myself, and even then usually only take one or two gulps at a time. I started doing that again last summer as well, but came up with a system where I'd take a drink of water every 100' of elevation gain and stop for a quick bite every 1,000'. On the way down it's whenever I stop, but it's a system that does work for me.

I do have 4 or 5 hydration bladders I'm going to try out this summer, just to see if I can get used to them. I know a lot of people on here swear by them, so we'll see how it goes.

I know I should be drinking more, but it's not something I think about when hiking...unless I'm hiking with Magic, he's good at reminding people!

Lawn Sale said:

I almost always forget to drink, then wonder why I either hit the wall or have a headache by the end of the day. Thus I have to force myself, and even then usually only take one or two gulps at a time. I started doing that again last summer as well, but came up with a system where I'd take a drink of water every 100' of elevation gain and stop for a quick bite every 1,000'. On the way down it's whenever I stop, but it's a system that does work for me.

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Another system is by the clock--I eat and drink at least once an hour--generally more often. (Works on the level too. )

I keep food in my pocket and a water bottle in my pocket or on my belt. (Yes, I like lots of big pockets...) By keeping them readily available, I can frequently eat and drink without breaking stride (or at most a very brief stop). Bladders also work for keeping water readily available (may be difficult to use in the cold--search for threads on the topic if you are interested).

I use the above systems all year round.

Stopping for a long lunch in the cold has the disadvantage that you are likely to get cold. Keeping your stops short avoids this problem.

Another trick is to put your gorp in a wide-mouth plastic bottle. Easy to eat with mittens/gloves on and you can even eat through a facemask.

Doug

i do atkins generally, and i put atkins shake mix in with my 2 liters of water i always bring. this is about 600 calories im drinking during the day, or more(900?) if i make them thick. they taste good so i like drinking them. one day a couple years ago i climbed adams in winter, and when i got to the bottom i realized i never ate my lunch! the water and calories in the 2 liters of atkins shakes kept me going all day. i got a kick out of that. drinking your lunch sure makes it easy. i still bring extra food in case i need it, usually low carb bars that are tasty and easy to eat. i find if stuff tastes good i eat it and drink it.

Recently,we started drinking Gatorade on the trail,and it seems to help. I use roughly the same method as DougPaul.About every half hour we stop and drink. When Mrs KD says she had enough,I always tell her "fine,now one more drink".
It's amazing how fast dehydration will crash your energy in the winter,and you end up cold and tired. Same goes for eating. When I'm moving on the trail,I don't get hungry either. You have to just set a time or place and eat anyways to keep up your energy level.

KayakDan said:

It's amazing how fast dehydration will crash your energy in the winter,and you end up cold and tired. Same goes for eating. When I'm moving on the trail,I don't get hungry either. You have to just set a time or place and eat anyways to keep up your energy level.

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The same fuel and water that supplies the motor also supplies the heater...

Dehydration and low fuel are usually factors in hypothermia and frostbite. Two more reasons to stay fed and watered.

Doug

I can't remember the doctors name as I write this (brain burp) but he operates a medical tent and does studies on Denali as well as treat climbers. His comment on hypothermia is very revealing. He was quoted on one of the classes I had "he has never met someone who was hypothermic who also wasn't dehydrated". That should say something about hydration. Also, it is self feeding, a side effect of hypothermia because of the vasoconstriction is the core receives more blood. The kidneys recognize this as a fluid volume increase and treats it as such. Making you pee even more which dehydrates you even more. I have been told in at least one hypothermia class that it is not unusual in a hypothermia death to see an ice ball of pee around that area. I was told with avalanche rescues if they have an ice ball around them they probably died of hypothermia, if they have an ice mask then probably suffocation and neither they probably succumbed to the trauma on the ride down. Yes, I believe it is possible to have both.

One more comment to add. You cannot burn food as fuel without being hydrated. You can eat, but your body won't use it. At least that is what I was taught in cold weather training. I am talking about protein and fats. I am unsure about carbs and simple sugars.

Keith

Something I thought that everyone knew but I will mention it. The army spent a small fortune to find the perfect cold weather food to help its soldiers in the event they get hypothermic. They spent a great deal of money and a lot of time and they finally came up with the answer. It boiled down to this chemical formula that was suitably impressive but when other experts looked at it, it looked remarkably similar to another chemical makeup.

So, go down to the local food store and pick this hypothermia reconstituting powder up. You will find it at your local grocery store under the trade name Jello. Make sure you purchase the ones with sugar and you will have what the government spent a great deal of money and time researching and is still spending many dollars buying their own special form of. If the person is hypothermic and they can swallow then heat it up with water and allow them to sip/drink it. I always carry a box of Jello in the winter as part of my basic supply. It makes no difference if it is a day hike or overnight camping, I always carry it for hypothermia emergencies. It is also considered to be part of the basic rescue gear required to be carried by all searchers by NASAR, the National association of Search and Rescue.

Don't get me wrong. I don't begrudge the Army doing the research. I think thats great. I just wish they would have bitten the bullet and just went with Jello when they saw how close it was to what they wanted.

Keith

SAR-EMT40 said:

I can't remember the doctors name as I write this (brain burp) but he operates a medical tent and does studies on Denali as well as treat climbers.

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Peter Hackett?

One more comment to add. You cannot burn food as fuel without being hydrated. You can eat, but your body won't use it. At least that is what I was taught in cold weather training. I am talking about protein and fats. I am unsure about carbs and simple sugars.

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The advice I have seen on survival is that if you are out of water, don't eat. Digestion consumes water. Don't remember any caveats on the kind of food.

Doug

DougPaul said:

Peter Hackett?

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Thanks, yep.

DougPaul said:

The advice I have seen on survival is that if you are out of water, don't eat. Digestion consumes water. Don't remember any caveats on the kind of food.

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You are correct but it takes lots less water to get energy (short term) from simple sugars and carbs. Eating things like proteins and fats can get you very sick when dehydrated. Another nail in your coffin in those conditions. Simple sugars and water are absorbed in the stomach. Fats and proteins have to go through the intestines. At least that was what I was taught.

Keith

This is an excellent discussion! It's especially poignant to me having had a first winter hiking experience recently. One of the things that really struck me about it was how thirsty I was! I couldn't drink enough. I never get that thirsty in the summer. My reaction seems to be the opposite of what I should have expected. Weird.

SAR-EMT40 said:

You are correct but it takes lots less water to get energy (short term) from simple sugars and carbs.

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Even though it takes less water than it does for protiens and fats, it still requires water. If one is dehydrated and out of energy, one must weigh whether they would be better being more hydrated and less energy, or more dehydrated with more energy. In my case, I would let the remaining amount of time dictate. If I've only a short amount of time, I would eat.

A few weeks ago, I was in the unfortunate situation of having 6 hours to hike with no water. I decided not to eat at all, so that the food's digestion would not take away my water... That, and the rubber band trick...