Vose Spur - flagging removed

My first 'whack of 2008!

Wow, it had been over a month since I've bushwhacked... started withdrawal symptoms. Detox is agony. I needed this 'whack!!

Left the Sawyer River Road trail head around 7AM with HikerDock, DocRoss, dRitter, and 6 other hearty souls. If I started jones'in before we got to the actual bushwhack I knew I was in good company. There where 3 doc's on this trip. I knew I could make it.

The Sawyer Rd was snowmobile packed and an easy bareboot. Some wore snowshoes, two skied. Once off the road we broke trail all the way to shortly after "the big rock". This is where I found my relief. My fix. The bushwhack would begin! I eagerly took the first lead. Man it felt good. The endorphin rush was incredible. I was home...

We made good progress switching leads frequently. Came out at the base of the scree slope from where we where treated with a fantastic view. The temperature was crisp, no wind, good views, great company. Life on the scree slope was good!

Shortly after re-entering the woods we ran into a line of flagging tape marking the herd path! I was not impressed and removed much of the flagging as I went along. I know I did not grab it all but on the way back down I did not see any. Whoever else helped in it's removal... thank you!

So after a steep ascent from the scree slope we topped out around noon. The canister is gone. A baggie with register was tied to a tree. No one had a replacement jar. dRitter donated a heavy duty ziploc to help protect the register. The canister bandito sux! Shame on me for not being prepared.

The descent back to the scree slope was slow. The slope was sooo steep that many choose to snowshoe down it backwards to allow "front pointing". We left in our wake an Olympic quality luge run! Back on the scree we hung out again soaking up the warmth of the sun. Pierce entertained us with a nice pirouette as he traversed the slope. I gave him a 9.8 for style!

For the last leg of our descent to the hiking trail a decision was made to avoid a steep part of our ascent route by heading off "to our right". Damon took this lead and picked his way through the path of least resistance and down onto the spine of a narrow open ridge. We spilled us out onto the hiking trail "just before" the big rock. Great job! Nice route finding.

The hike back was quick. We noticed the Signal Ridge trail to Carigain was now broken out. The water crossings we picked our way carefully across on the way up where attacked head on... splash, splash, splash! We where back to the Sawyer River Road in what seemed no time at all.

Another great day in the woods!

Nice TR and thanks for removing the trash! The mountain thanks you.

happy trails

Vose Spur

So after a steep ascent from the scree slope we topped out around noon. The canister is gone. A baggie with register was tied to a tree. No one had a replacement jar. dRitter donated a heavy duty ziploc to help protect the register. The canister bandito sux! Shame on me for not being prepared.

In fact, Pierce Hunter had some bars in a JIF jar and I asked him to eat the bars so we could use the jar. dRitter had a shoelace and we put the register back up in the jar on the tree. Because it is known to be the favorite plastic of bears, it will need to be replaced with a glass one, but until that time there is at least a fair chance of it staying dry.
Who is removing these registers and why? Clearly whoever you are, you are fighting a losing battle. We will continue to put them up!

I am asking, not commenting, but what is the difference between flagging and a cannister jar?

HikerDoc said:

Who is removing these registers and why? Clearly whoever you are, you are fighting a losing battle. We will continue to put them up!

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Marchowes started a thread about this a while ago. http://vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=17867

dug said:

I am asking, not commenting, but what is the difference between flagging and a cannister jar?

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Well, I'm not going to make a huge deal about the philosophy, etc., but I don't bother registers and I do remove flagging that I know is not official.

If flagging is from a hiker, camper, hunter, etc., I consider it trash and remove it. A line of flags is an eyesore that can go on for miles. It's just bad form to use them to mark a route to a peak or a campsite etc. It's ugly trash.

A cannister could be considered the same, but I don't bother them. It's only a single item, and it's in a specific place. I've only seen one in all my hundreds of miles of bushwacking. That was on The Fool Killer, when the only comfortable way I could manage to get from one slope to the another was to go over the top. I knew there would be a single jar there somwhere and it didn't bother me. In fact, I said hello! Just my feeling. However, if I decide to follow a ridge or a brook and there's a stupid flag every 20', that's a whole different thing.

In cases like this on Vose Spur, the flagging robs hikers of the pleasure of finding their own way, and the lack of human sign is considered a nice thing by many bushwackers.

Lately, I've been out around the Swift River and Ledge Brook and I saw flagging that I expected to see from the Kanc7 Project. That, I left alone.

happy trails

What if you did not know it was for the Kanc7 project and removed it thinking it was trash? Could you be prosecuted? How can one tell official from non-official markings?

What if you cut off somebody's return route and something bad happened?

Are wands in the snow trash?

Food for thought...

Tim

bikehikeskifish said:

What if you did not know it was for the Kanc7 project and removed it thinking it was trash? Could you be prosecuted? How can one tell official from non-official markings?

What if you cut off somebody's return route and something bad happened?

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Usually survey crews label their flagging.

Those who rely on it to get back to civilization are asking for trouble!

Depends on the surveyor. When I was in the surveying business the flagging and colors had a specific purpose. This was specific to our particular company, but others used the same:

-Blue: lot lines
-Oreange: Traverse points.
-Yellow: When doing a topo, we would take shots about every 50'. As the rod-man, I'd tag a branch with a small piece of yellow flagging. If we did a 200-acre parcel, it would look like the place was carpet bombed. Keep in mind most of these were destined for developement, to the theory was everything would be wiped away eventually.

Some flagging was marked, but not all of it. Depends on where and what you are seeing. However, with a little common sense you should be able to disseminate between surveying flagging and bushwack flagging. Survey flagging will be done at extreme straight angles to allow for shots. Bushwack I assume will take as straight a shot as possible, but will change direction when necessary. With surveying, you just remove the item that is in your way (!)

But, litter is litter and I honestly don't know the difference between flagging and a cannister.

dug said:

But, litter is litter and I honestly don't know the difference between flagging and a cannister.

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Yes, if you define litter as "something left in the forest" then yes, cannisters and flagging would fit that description. But it's a bit of a logical fallacy in that I believe that a cannister is somewhat of an exception as they are typically solitary and localized to the actual peak. They serve a dual function both as an "unofficial" summit marker and summit log. Flagging on the other hand is more indiscriminate where it is placed. People not doing "official" surveying will oftentimes place large amounts of survey tape usually along a straight bearing (blast to the top) or along a meandering fashion (who knows where) -- with no intention of removing the tape (which accumulates if more than one person marks a route). Survey Taped routes encourage undesirable herdpaths which, if the route hasn't been intelligently laid, leads to erosion & possibly damage. Some people find that survey tape all over just looks ugly and detracts from the character of the forest. In general, a summit cannister is limited to one location on the summit and oftentimes is not entirely visible (unlike bright colored survey tape).

I guess it's how you define litter. Survey tape serves little or no purpose except for the person who put it up (who knows where a taped path leads?) while, as I said, a summit cannister at least has some functionality beyond that of the person who put it up.

If someone if flagging an official route, I would suggest having some notes up as well indicating that the flagging should not be removed.

-Dr. Wu

dr_wu002 said:

Yes, if you define litter as "something left in the forest" then yes, cannisters and flagging would fit that description. But it's a bit of a logical fallacy in that I believe that a cannister is somewhat of an exception as they are typically solitary and localized to the actual peak. They serve a dual function both as an "unofficial" summit marker and summit log. Flagging on the other hand is more indiscriminate where it is placed. People not doing "official" surveying will oftentimes place large amounts of survey tape usually along a straight bearing (blast to the top) or along a meandering fashion (who knows where) -- with no intention of removing the tape (which accumulates if more than one person marks a route). Survey Taped routes encourage undesirable herdpaths which, if the route hasn't been intelligently laid, leads to erosion & possibly damage. Some people find that survey tape all over just looks ugly and detracts from the character of the forest. In general, a summit cannister is limited to one location on the summit and oftentimes is not entirely visible (unlike bright colored survey tape).

I guess it's how you define litter. Survey tape serves little or no purpose except for the person who put it up (who knows where a taped path leads?) while, as I said, a summit cannister at least has some functionality beyond that of the person who put it up.

If someone if flagging an official route, I would suggest having some notes up as well indicating that the flagging should not be removed.

-Dr. Wu

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Interesting. I will again preface my comments that I am not much of a bushwacker (necessity only, so keep that in mind)....but I would think the your reasoning could be applied against your argument vs. for it. To wit:

-Survey tape serves little or no purpose... Sure it does, it marks a route for the next dude, and also for a return trip. The cannister marks the destination, and also identifies it for the next dude.

-Survey tape encourage undesirable herd paths.... Yes, but also doesn't peakbagging in general encourage that? Also, doesn't these trip reports where everyone climbing Vose Spur (for example) know the way to get there? Doesn't that build a herd path?

-Survey tape all over detracts from the character of the forest and looks ugly... Sure it does. I guess at least one person feels the same about the cannister (the dude who is removing them).

Now, again, these are not my opinions. It just seems the rules are very vague (like postholing/snowshoeing/glissading/widening-the-trail vs. packing the trail). Seems kind of arbitrary. But, since there is probably a 99% chance you will never see me hunting around for a cannister on a trailess peak, at the end of the day I don't care. Just curious. Thanks Wu (are you really just a shadow of a man you once knew?) for the feedback. Good stuf..

bikehikeskifish said:

What if you did not know it was for the Kanc7 project and removed it thinking it was trash? Could you be prosecuted? How can one tell official from non-official markings?

What if you cut off somebody's return route and something bad happened?

Are wands in the snow trash?

Food for thought...

Tim

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Tim, to answer your question, it is illegal to mess with survey markers. Most flagging, however, I don't think qualifies as a survey marker. Anything nailed in the ground, to a post, tree, etc. (i.e. permanent) probably does, however.

dug said:

-Survey tape serves little or no purpose... Sure it does, it marks a route for the next dude, and also for a return trip. The cannister marks the destination, and also identifies it for the next dude.

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This is the only one that I don't necessarily agree with. The survey taped lines for bushwhacks that I've found are oftentimes bizarre, extremely illogical, or are irrelevant (lead to no where). Sometimes, as in this case (Vose Spur), the tape superfluously marks an exiting herd path, and it follows a path to a specific location.

I guess there's nothing that says you (the next dude) can't take down survey tape so people do it. Less people take down cannisters so I'm guessing (rule of the majority?) that more people find tape offensive than cannisters.

Shadowy, maybe -- more likely hot air.

-Dr. Wu

dug said:

Tim, to answer your question, it is illegal to mess with survey markers. Most flagging, however, I don't think qualifies as a survey marker. Anything nailed in the ground, to a post, tree, etc. (i.e. permanent) probably does, however.

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I would assume that in order to make it illegal to remove something, that something should be labeled as such. Obviously, the general public knows better than to remove federal property such as mailboxes (most people know this, I guess) but (for instance) things like survey monuments that mark the AT Boundary explicitly say "Do Not Disturb" -- and I think the fine for disturbing them is quite high. We marked some of these monuments that were hard to find with survey tape. I assume it's legal to remove it but then again, who really walks the AT Boundary? If the monument was close to the trail, a house or a road we didn't use tape. Also, the boundary is blazed in a very straight line but sometimes the monuments are still difficult to find.

-Dr. Wu

dr_wu002 said:

I would assume that in order to make it illegal to remove something, that something should be labeled as such. Obviously, the general public knows better than to remove federal property such as mailboxes (most people know this, I guess) but (for instance) things like survey monuments that mark the AT Boundary explicitly say "Do Not Disturb" -- and I think the fine for disturbing them is quite high. We marked some of these monuments that were hard to find with survey tape. I assume it's legal to remove it but then again, who really walks the AT Boundary? If the monument was close to the trail, a house or a road we didn't use tape. Also, the boundary is blazed in a very straight line but sometimes the monuments are still difficult to find.

-Dr. Wu

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It may be based upon state requirements (but, I doubt it), but it is absolutely illegal to move or remove a recorded survey monument. Now, this specifically refers to a lot line or corner. Would a typical person know if they are looking at a traverse point vs. a recorded lot line? I probably would. I don't know if everyone would, however. I think it comes down to permanent vs. temporary. Tape, wooden hubs, etc. are not considered permanent, so probably can be moved or removed. Iron posts, granite posts, etc. cannot. Are you potentially making a headache for a future surveyor? Yes.

On another note, I had one surveyor who would go crazy with orange paint identifying "found" markers, corners, etc. It makes it easier for the next person (possibly him) when coming through again. Another would use the bare minimum as to least impact the land. Sure enough, we would spend a lot more time looking for previous markings when we'd have to go back.

Sorry for the thread drift.....................

dug said:

It may be based upon state requirements (but, I doubt it), but it is absolutely illegal to move or remove a recorded survey monument. Now, this specifically refers to a lot line or corner. ... Tape, wooden hubs, etc. are not considered permanent, so probably can be moved or removed. Iron posts, granite posts, etc. cannot.
Sorry for the thread drift.....................

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dug - Many years ago a neighbor hired a surveyor who pounded a metal pipe into my driveway about a foot from the edge of the driveway. The driveway/street was part of a legal right-of-way, and the maintained road was rather narrow to begin with. The stake was a hazard - puncture a tire, trip over it walking to the mailbox, hit it with snowblower/plow/whatever, etc.

Are there 'ethics' surveyors follow when placing these stakes (it wasn't anywhere near a corner)? Could I have gotten into 'trouble' for pounding the stake into oblivion?

Sorry about the drift -

Kevin Rooney said:

dug - Many years ago a neighbor hired a surveyor who pounded a metal pipe into my driveway about a foot from the edge of the driveway. The driveway/street was part of a legal right-of-way, and the maintained road was rather narrow to begin with. The stake was a hazard - puncture a tire, trip over it walking to the mailbox, hit it with snowblower/plow/whatever, etc.

Are there 'ethics' surveyors follow when placing these stakes (it wasn't anywhere near a corner)? Could I have gotten into 'trouble' for pounding the stake into oblivion?

Sorry about the drift -

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In the legal sense, you probably could've been in trouble. However, I would think there has to be some provisions about items in rights-of-way not being a hazard. I believe there is a license surveyor who is a member of this board, maybe they can chime on the legalities here. Worst case, the surveyer sounds like an idiot. I probably wouldn't have pounded it in, but instead called the town over to take care of it. Lot corners and lot lines shouldn't be placed in the right of way, they should be placed at the EDGE of the right-of-way. Sounds like the surveyor and the town are in disagreement as to what they perceived as the real property edge. What did the pipe intend to designate?

Flagged paths to the summit on bushwack peaks

I would just like to provide a bit of history which sometimes clarifies how we got where we are. When the NH 4000'er committee decided to expand the list of peaks recognized to include 100 highest peaks in New England, they put up cannisters on trail-less peaks so people would know they got to the summit. Gene Danielle III, the personality behind this committee, published route descriptions for people to follow to climb these peaks. It was a game, and you would get recognition for playing the game at the annual 4000'er meeting. Certificates and patches were awarded to participants and there was recognition by peers of something difficult accomplished. This was of course prior to GPS and quite a bit of skill was involved. Gene asked anyone who found flagging tape marking a route to one of these summits to remove it and send it to him. Flagging a path was considered "cheating" at this game. We adopted his mindset that you needed to climb these peaks on your own without a flagged route. It was NOT about finding trash in the woods and removing it to keep the wilderness pristine.

The flagging in this case was irresponsibly placed on a route that would eventually become very eroded if it sees continued traffic. Without debating the canister versus flagging issue, I do support removing flagging (filled my pockets with removed flags) because it concentrates the impact of people and can lead to seriously eroded areas. The "unrecognized trail" to PATN is a great example.

If flagging is in place to help some "Hansel and Gretel" type find their way home, they obviously don't have the requisite navigation skillset and shouldn't be bushwhacking

dRitter said:

The flagging in this case was irresponsibly placed on a route that would eventually become very eroded if it sees continued traffic. Without debating the canister versus flagging issue, I do support removing flagging (filled my pockets with removed flags) because it concentrates the impact of people and can lead to seriously eroded areas. The "unrecognized trail" to PATN is a great example.

If flagging is in place to help some "Hansel and Gretel" type find their way home, they obviously don't have the requisite navigation skillset and shouldn't be bushwhacking

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That's an awfully strong statement. Can you prove it was irresponsibly placed? What is irresponsible is leaving the tape in place on the way out.

At some point, you went on your first hike, and eventually your first bushwhack, and maybe your navigational skills weren't what they are today.

Keep in mind that public land is open to the public, beginners and experts alike. Much as we like to think we're above the beginners and tourists, w/o them there wouldn't be much of a north country economy (for good or for bad.) We all were beginners at one time.

Tim