Comparison of indoor vs outdoor temperatures of huts in the winter

Thinking about going on my first overnight winter adventure but I'm a little nervous about the gear my group has (no sub-zero bags). I'm thinking about making reservations for either the AMC High Cabin, AMC Zealand Hut, RMC Gray Knob hut, USFS Black Mountain Cabin, USFS Doublehead Cabin or a cabins in Savoy SF in MA.

Some questions:
(1) How cold can it possibly get?
(2) What's the coldest temperature you've experienced while sleeping in a hut/cabin in winter in this region? (exterior vs. interior temperatures if you remember both).
(3) For those cabins/huts with wood stoves, do you often find it necessary to replace the wood in the wood stove several times throughout the night?
(4) Say the temperature outside is -10 degrees, what can you reasonably expect the sleeping quarters to be in one or each of the cabins listed below? (with or without the wood stove).
(5) Have any of the wood stoves ever failed you? I had a lot of trouble getting the Black Mountain Cabin stove fired up this past spring. Could be I need to brush up on my fire-starting skills
(6) I'm guessing many of you will be sending me on my way to EMS or REI to buy a -20 degree bag. Any model suggestions?

Any feedback/thoughts/ideas/warnings would be appreciated!

Thanks

I stayed with a buddy at Zealand Hut last February.

The sleeping quarters in the huts are often separate from the common areas and are usually not heated at all.

Even with the stove, temps can be a little cool in the common room. The hutmaster is often reluctant to start up the stove and will only use it sparingly.

I've heard that the sleeping areas of, for example, Carter Notch Hut can be pretty darned frigid, as cold as outside, minus the wind.

In my experience last winter, the Zealand bunk-room was around 10* at midnight. There were only a few of us in the hut that night.

During dinner-time, with the stove finally going and the cooking going on, the main room warmed up to the high 30s.

Hope this helps,

--Mike.

1) The stoves in Gray Knob and Zealand just take the edge off the cold. Sleeping quarters in both can easily go below freezing. You should be prepared for temps in the teens indoors.

2) -35 outdoors/14 indoors That was at a cabin in the College Grant.

3) Absolutely. In the AMC/RMC huts you don't have control of the stove, the caretakers do. Wood stoves generally won't last the night, and you have to damp them down anyways so they produce less heat overnight.

4) too many variables. I'd say any of those will reach the 20's easily. With no stove running, they'll be essentially the same as outside.

5) They can be troublesome, but you can pretty much always get some sort of fire going. In the AMC and RMC cabins (except the High Cabin) you don't control the stove but they will be in good working order. But they don't get run very much in either place.

I think winter sleeping bags can be rented somewhere in the Mt Washington Valley but havent looked for them.

With regards to Gray Knob, if you are going there on a popular weekend even in the winter, you may get shifted over to Crag Camp if Grey Knob is full. Crag Camp has no stove and tends to be colder at night. The issue with heating Gray Knob is more than just lack of wood, its moisture management, if they heat up the hut too much things start to melt which raises the humidity. The building is so tight that the humidity tends to freeze on insde surfaces when the fire goes out. This isnt as much of an issue with other huts as they are a lot less tight.

I would plan for no heat and be prepared for the lowest temperature.

Little Rickie said:

I would plan for no heat and be prepared for the lowest temperature.

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-459.67° F ???






Fascinating addition to the discussion, sir.

ferrisjrf said:

-459.67° F ???






Fascinating addition to the discussion, sir.

Click to expand...

does someone make an absolute zero bag?

ferrisjrf said:

-459.67° F ???






Fascinating addition to the discussion, sir.

Click to expand...

Ya got me.

I guess it wouldn't make any difference then.

Are you another scientist?

David Metsky said:

1) The stoves in Gray Knob and Zealand just take the edge off the cold. Sleeping quarters in both can easily go below freezing. You should be prepared for temps in the teens indoors.

3) In the AMC/RMC huts you don't have control of the stove, the caretakers do.

Click to expand...

^^^This iz korrekt.

My only experience with huts in the Whites has been at Grey Knob when we bailed off a winter Presi Traverse due to poor conditions. Outside it was -25, but a balmy 20F in the common area -- WITH the stove going.

As Dave points out, they don't crank it up...rather just let slow burn to "take the chill off." We were still pretty layered up with our down parkas on, even sitting round relaxing. In the unheated sleeping loft upstairs, I was damned glad to have my -20F bag.

Speaking of which, I've been super happy with my EMS Mountain Light -20F down bag for the last two winters. It's uber-toasty!

The Mountain Light 0F bag is on sale now at EMS -- maybe you could get this one and plan on sleeping in some more layers? Just a thought.

mookie said:

does someone make an absolute zero bag?

Click to expand...

No, but MH make an Absolute Zero suit.

All the cool kids on the Big E are wearing them...

Another question I don't know the answer to - does sleeping in a down jacket within a down sleeping bag offer some serious benefit. Is the down too compressed at that point? Are there any other issues with this, such as comfort, moisture management, etc.?

We stayed in a cabin in Savoy without winter bags.
You'll be plenty warm if you bring enough wood.

I was going to rehash one of old stories and then realized I had a TR up HERE

The winter caretakers have acclimated to the colder temps well, and being the person who lugs the wood, can sometimes seem stingy by typical standards. If you have a large enough group, it never hurts to bring an extra log or so per person and ask if the caretaker will light the fire earlier, or let you toss the logs in later.

Prepare as if you would be staying in a tent, and appreciate the evening hours around the woodstove when you can take the down coat off.

roadtripper said:

Another question I don't know the answer to - does sleeping in a down jacket within a down sleeping bag offer some serious benefit. Is the down too compressed at that point? Are there any other issues with this, such as comfort, moisture management, etc.?

Click to expand...

Much will depend upon how snug your bag was BEFORE you put on the down jacket. My hunch that if you attempt it you'll never be able to zip the bag shut!

I guess if I were worried about being cold I'm make sure I had an extra warm hat and mitts, along with 200 weight fleece pants and jacket over long johns.

This may be psychological as much as anything, but ... I've always found unheated buildings colder that the outside air. The exception to this is when it's windy, but in still air - it just felt colder. Have never taken a temperature reading, so this is all anecdotal.

roadtripper said:

(6) I'm guessing many of you will be sending me on my way to EMS or REI to buy a -20 degree bag. Any model suggestions?

Click to expand...

I'd be prepared for essentially ambient temps.

REI rents sleeping bags: http://www.rei.com/stores/rentals.html. Maybe EMS does too.

You can always try two bags, one inside the other. And bring a good pad.

Doug

DougPaul said:

And bring a good pad.

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IIRC, Grey Knob has a bunch o' mattresses up in the loft for occupant use. They're thin -- like 3" or so (i.e., not like a regular household mattress) -- but loads better than even a Ridgerest/Thermarest combo.

ferrisjrf said:

-459.67° F ???

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Hee hee hee!

Nice!

Having done Zealand and Carter huts many times the temperature can get very cold. At both locations I have been at -20. The difference IMO is that at Zealand you leave the "relative" warmth (maybe 30-40) and go into the cold bunkrooms that are attached! At Carter you leave that "relative" warmth and have to go outside and up a usually icy hill to get to the bunk house. Psychologically harder for me. Using the facilities at night if you need to is also easier at Zealand, as you can go in you camp shoes/booties as it is outside but you get to walk on the covered porch. Again, at Carter you must put on some kind of "gear" to get to the facilities. If it does get to absolute zero as Ferrisjrf suggests than all motion stops so you really won't need to worry about the cold or anything else for that matter. At the high cabin I believe that you now have to bring in your own wood. When we did this a couple of years ago in February we brought in wood in one of those cheap plastic red sleds to supplement the wood they gave us. This was a bit of an effort but with outside temps that night around 20 we had the cabin up to 60. Our winter bags were way too warm. Bottom line is there are alot of variables. A water bottle with HOT water in it in your bag also does wonders. No matter where you go its great fun. My buddies and I are going to either Carter or Grey Knob during our Feb. school vacation (yearly ritual).
Enjoy

Do jumping jacks before you zip into the sleeping bag, eat adequate calories, put a hot (or warm) bottle of water in the bag, zip it up tight and hope you don't have to get out too soon. You can use chemical heat packs too as long as they are insulated from direct contact with your body. Conventional wisdom is that a tent will trap some of your body heat; a large cabin won't.

FWIW, I'd rather sleep in an unheated cabin. Otherwise the room gradually cools down as the heat dies and you keep waking up cold to close up your sleeping bag. If the room stays at a relatively constant temp, you can adjust things once and get some sleep.

Bring earplugs.

Doug