Longest trails hike to a NH4

My apologies for hi-jacking an Owlshead thread (probalby not the first time that has happened). Here are the creative replies so far on that thread to my trivia question stimulated by HikerBob's long approach to Garfield for his NH48 finish posted by MichealJ. And, yes, the question is like the "traveling saleman" problem, as noted by Tim (Hikebikeskifish).

Just to clarify with some ground rules for original trivia question below: 1) using a tunnel to cross a road, such as the I-93 parkway in Franconia Notch, should not count, 2) road walks should not count, 3) Mount Washington's Auto Road should count as a road (but, the Cog tracks are ok), 4) repeating any stretch of trail should not count, 5) crossing any previously hiked trail segment should not count, 6) trails no longer officially maintained OR not shown in the latest edition of the White Mountain Trail Guide should not count, and 7) bushwhacking should not count.

So, it seems that rules 3, 4, and 5 limit the possibility for doing an out and back in the Presi's from the south to roughly just south of the Washington-Clay col, although I am in Seattle and do not have maps of the Whites in front of me at the moment. So, we need some number tallying to compare some of the suggested Pemi meanderings, the southern Presi's, the Wild River Wilderness, and any others.

Then, once we get a consensus on the longest route, we can advertise far and wide for ultra-athletes from all over the world to take the challenge. We also will need a catchy name for the event.


Originally Posted by MichaelJ
HikerBob finished his 48 on Garfield from Lincoln Woods.

Dr. Dasypodidae: Ok, trivia question: What is the longest one-way trail approach to a 4000-footer in the Whites without crossing a road or another 4000-footer? Name the peak, trails, and total one-way mileage.
Dr. Dasypodidae


Yesterday, 07:16 AM #54
Tom Rankin
Depending on how you define 'another 4000-footer', I could come up with an obscenely long hike that skirts several summits. Is this allowed in this game? Also, define 'road'. Do tunnels count? What about 'old' trails?

Anyway, my offering: Start at Profile Lake, hit the hut, take OBP DOWN, Falling waters up, turn south back down Franconia, West on Spring/scenic trail, Flume to Osseo, North to Franconia Brook camps, East on Wilderness, North on Shoal, take the AT, pass Zealand Hut, and go all the way to Mt. Tom or Hale!


Yesterday, 07:34 AM #55
bikehikeskifish
I'm guessing there is a route to Jackson (or Pierce even) involving Davis Path all the way to, around and down the east side of Washington and back around the west side of the Presidentials, down to Dry River, Saco, Webster Cliff and back up. I'm sure we can include some road walks, without actual crossings.

This is the Traveling Salesman Problem which is of course NP-Complete.


Yesterday, 09:18 AM #56
MichaelJ
I was thinking something similar to Tim's idea. No map in front of me, but since Isolation is on a spur, there must be a way to take the Davis Path from 302 all the way up to Boott Spur, then around Monroe, back down into the Dry River Wilderness, then back up, and hit a summit after many miles.

If that doesn't win, then again since Zealand is on a spur, how about in on Wilderness (or Hancock Notch?) through Stillwater to Ethan Pond Trail to the hut, then up Twinway, past Zealand & around Guyot back to South Twin?

One more guess - Wild River Campground, Wild River Trail to Wildcat River Trail to Carter Notch to 19 Mile-Brook Trail down to Carter Dome Trail then back up to Zeta Pass and to the Dome or South, whichever's then further?


Yesterday, 09:29 AM #57
sierra
Owls head is the furthest unless this is some kind of trick question


Yesterday, 09:43 AM #58
bikehikeskifish
There is no trail to Owl's head.


Yesterday, 09:52 AM #59
MichaelJ
Owl's Head has the longest of all the shortest approaches. Dr. D. is soliciting the overall longest approach. Er, does that make sense?


Yesterday, 09:52 AM #60
dug
I'm guessing Mt. Madison from Davis Path


RoySwkr Yesterday #61
Field would be farther via Avalon Tr, or how about up Thoreau Falls, down Shoal, and across Carrigain Notch to Signal Ridge?

I'll bet that it's something like Madison, starting at Mt Pickering and zigzagging Dry River, Great Gulf, and RMC trails.


Bikehikeskifish Yesterday, 09:57 AM #62
Madison via Davis Path is probably a good guess, if you define "one-way" not including U-turns. If you define it as no back-tracking on a trail (crossing a used trail is OK) then I think you can go all the way to and around Madison, and then snake up and down the network of trails on the NW side of Madison->Washington before heading south (and snaking some more) and finally ending up on Pierce or Jackson. Heck you can snake your way up and down the Great Gulf / Madison Gulf as well - as long as you don't cross the Auto Road.

The Auto Road divides the map into two lobes - north and south of Washington - how many trails cross north-south without crossing the summit or the Auto Road - At least two. With more, perhaps it can get even longer.


Yesterday, 10:03 AM #63
Dave Bear
Makes me think of the crazy notion I had one time of doing a Presi Figure Eight involving Davis and Great Gulf. Mine would have to be a backpack but I am sure that there are folks on this forum that could do it in a day!


Yesterday, 10:52 AM #64
DougPaul
Dr D's problem statement does not disallow loops. Thus the distance could be arbitrarily large. Infinite if you wish.

Example: I could start at Lincoln Woods and go around Owls Head as many times as I wish before climbing the slide to the summit. (Had to make it relevant to the OP's topic. And, for the purposes of this comment, let's assume that the standard slide route up Owls Head is a trail.)


Yesterday, 11:25 AM #65
David Metsky
Moderator Note
That might make a good thread on its own. Let's stick to the topic here.

There is no trail to owls head? I beg to differ, its amazing what people out here will contest, I mean really. You go out there and walk to the summit and come back and honestly say you did a bushwack to owls head, that I want to hear.

Following these rules, I submit 73+ miles and 35,000 feet (using TOPO 4.5, which underestimates most things by 10% or more, so I think this would be 80+ miles.)



Based on the map, I do not return to a trail jct., or repeat any sections of trail.

Davis Path to Jefferson, looping up and down everything I could find on the way there. I may spend the time to write up the individual legs later.

Tim

You are an insane person. I'm sure that's in a good way.

But one question: did you always plan to end at Jefferson, or did you end up there out of necessity or some other driver?

By the way, it would be interesting to see a requirement that you be ready to hike your route. --Mike.

--M. said:

But one question: did you always plan to end at Jefferson, or did you end up there out of necessity or some other driver?

Click to expand...

Thanks - I enjoy puzzles I planned to snake my way up and down the maze of trails around Appalachia. In so doing, Jefferson seemed like the longest route.

I'm guessing if I reroute a bit more near Appalachia I can get it up to 100 miles. Dr. D. is not specific about returning to a junction - only that you cannot cross a trail, as in a figure eight. If he allows returning (as in a bow tie) then I can do even better. The Auto Road definitely makes it hard as there aren't four routes west of it over Washington.

Tim

Very cool route, Tim! In the olden days, Appies (AMCers) training for summer climbing in the Alps created up-down-up-down-up-down routes in the northern Presi's to rack up mileage and elevation gain; there is an article in the Appalachia journal about one of these routes that they called the "Swan's Traverse," I think. But, it would be considered a walk in the park compared to your extravaganza.

I knew there was a reason I hadn't skimmed this thread before ...

I am reminded of cyclocross course design in which you must form an interesting and challenging route which is spectator friendly and consists of 5-8 minute laps, all while maintaining a minimum lane width of 3 meters and of course no part of the course can cross another (crash prevention).

Tim

Cool route

... with "aid stations" at Mizpah, Lakes of the Clouds, and--if the Parapet Trail is taken to the hut before climbing the peak--Madison Hut.

Looks like fun!!

sierra said:

There is no trail to owls head? I beg to differ, its amazing what people out here will contest, I mean really. You go out there and walk to the summit and come back and honestly say you did a bushwack to owls head, that I want to hear.

Click to expand...

The AMC WMG calls it a herd path, and it is not on the USFS trail list, although it is in better shape than many WMNF trails. The AMC FTFC still considers the true summit to be a bushwhack from the old one hence does not require you to go there.

bikehikeskifish said:

Following these rules, I submit 73+ miles and 35,000 feet (using TOPO 4.5, which underestimates most things by 10% or more, so I think this would be 80+ miles.)

Click to expand...

I commend Mr. BHSF for doing what I was too lazy to do, but now that he's done it, there are obvious improvements:
* Come up over Mt. Pickering instead of starting at Davis Path
* Go farther down Dry River and take connector to Webster Cliff (SP trail not shown on map)
* Go down Stairs Col Trail instead of going by Isolation
* Go down Raymond Path to bottom of Nelson Crag Trail
* Use Cornice one way or another to slightly increase distance up Jefferson

RoySwkr said:

I commend Mr. BHSF for doing what I was too lazy to do, but now that he's done it, there are obvious improvements:
* Come up over Mt. Pickering instead of starting at Davis Path
* Go farther down Dry River and take connector to Webster Cliff (SP trail not shown on map)
* Go down Stairs Col Trail instead of going by Isolation
* Go down Raymond Path to bottom of Nelson Crag Trail
* Use Cornice one way or another to slightly increase distance up Jefferson

Click to expand...

I added the Raymond Path to Nelson Crag but didn't post it It pushes my loop up to 76 miles and 36,800 feet I can update the route tonight when I get home.

I'm certain that there is more snaking that can be done around Appalachia too.

Tim

I took most of Roy's suggestions - I can't add a trail that isn't on my map. I re-routed through some probably seldom-used trails near the bottom of Adams, which adds maybe 1 or 2 miles. Mount Pickering and Stairs Col definitely boosted the mileage. If only there was a way to drop down the Ammo and up the Jewell

This leaves me at:

85.7 miles, +38,900 feet

I'm not sure I can wiggle much more without returning to a trail junction. Given the error I know that Topo tends to introduce (10-15%) I would be pretty comfortable in saying this will be 100+ miles if really laid out. I don't have access to the AMC online trail mapping / mileage program or I'd give it a try.

Tim

bikehikeskifish said:

I took most of Roy's suggestions - I can't add a trail that isn't on my map. I re-routed through some probably seldom-used trails near the bottom of Adams, which adds maybe 1 or 2 miles. Mount Pickering and Stairs Col definitely boosted the mileage. If only there was a way to drop down the Ammo and up the Jewell

This leaves me at:

85.7 miles, +38,900 feet

I'm not sure I can wiggle much more without returning to a trail junction. Given the error I know that Topo tends to introduce (10-15%) I would be pretty comfortable in saying this will be 100+ miles if really laid out. I don't have access to the AMC online trail mapping / mileage program or I'd give it a try.

Tim

Click to expand...

I can get you a wheel if you want to hike it!

There look to be a couple other places where you could add half a mile or so:
* Go a little farther down Great Gulf
* Loop over Kelton Crag

When I saw Dr. D's original note, I thought he had an answer but apparently not

RoySwkr said:

When I saw Dr. D's original note, I thought he had an answer but apparently not

Click to expand...

Ha, ha, ha: just questions with no answers from me on this one. I will have both question and answer for my next redlining exploit.

Let's start a pool: Who will be the first to complete "Tim's Route" as a grid?

Let me ask this - anyone think of any other possible candidates for a longer route? Too many trails in the Pemi go right over the summit of something, I think.

I may try rerouting so that I end up on Washington, allowing me to go down the Ammo and up the Jewell and up/down/around the 3 Northern Presis before coming up via GG or Nelson Crag.

Tim

bikehikeskifish said:

Let me ask this - anyone think of any other possible candidates for a longer route? Too many trails in the Pemi go right over the summit of something, I think.

Click to expand...

Doh!

I did but failed to notice the "not over another 4000-footer rule". Using the Map Adventures map and excel, I came up with a winding route starting at Nancy Pond, looping over Carrigain, up Shoal pond, over Willey/Field/Tom and Avalon. A-Z trail to Ethan Pond Trail to Thoreau Falls, along the East Side Trail to the wilderness boundary, cross the river and up to the Bonds, past Gailhead hut, down to 13 falls and back to Garfield Ridge to Laffayette, down OBP to Falling Waters and back up to the ridge only to drop again to the Flume Slide Trail and gain the ridge again, drop down the Osseo and head north into the Pemi for the "long way around" Owls Head before climbing the slide to the summit.

The only caveat (aside form the summits rule) is to cross the river and gain the Wilderness trail in such a manner that you do not re-cross the route at the end of the trip on your way to Owls Head. Total distance 9if I didn't make any errors, omissions, or double-counts) is 91.5 miles according to the mileage printed on the map.

If somebody had left certain bridges in place and not officially closed a certain section of the Wilderness Trail I could make an even bigger loop coming back up the East Side Trail and use Cedar Brook to end on one of the Hancocks.

But it's all for-not considering Dr. D's requirement that no other 4000 footers be crossed.

bikehikeskifish said:

Let me ask this - anyone think of any other possible candidates for a longer route? Too many trails in the Pemi go right over the summit of something, I think.

I may try rerouting so that I end up on Washington, allowing me to go down the Ammo and up the Jewell and up/down/around the 3 Northern Presis before coming up via GG or Nelson Crag.

Tim

Click to expand...

As much as most of us like Jefferson more than Washington as a summit, I think that this ultra event would be better branded if ending on Washington, especially if we are to attract world-class ultra athletes from around the globe. If Tim can get his mileage up to 100, that also would add to the branding. Need a name for your event, Tim. Bonington once wrote a book titled "Everest the Hard Way." Sounds like we have a volunteer to give this route a test run in Stinkyfeet.