Tourists making a mess of national Parks
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CaptCaper
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I'm going in Sept there for the 3rd time. Mostly I've seen the park pristine but that's Sept not summer tourists. Totally different atmosphere. At Mesa Verde once the day after Labor Day the park ranger said how glad the summer is over. And he welcomes us old folks with no kids,etc. He said it's plain crazy summers with families almost killing themselves. No way would I go out in the Summer. I would take Winter in crampons then that. And that's what were doing for Yosemite. Going way off season to avoid the California craziness.
Raven
Well-known member
Carelessly leaving lots of trash in GNP could have some very real, very natural consequences.
TCD
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Well...
https://www.dailywire.com/news/4828...-signs-warning-melting-glaciers-emily-zanotti
https://www.greatfallstribune.com/story/news/local/2014/05/05/residents-trash-new-cans/8710527/
But of course I agree that everyone should carry out what they carry in. If all visitors to our various resources just had two thoughts in mind: "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints" and "If you carry it in, carry it out" we'd be in a lot better shape...
https://www.dailywire.com/news/4828...-signs-warning-melting-glaciers-emily-zanotti
https://www.greatfallstribune.com/story/news/local/2014/05/05/residents-trash-new-cans/8710527/
But of course I agree that everyone should carry out what they carry in. If all visitors to our various resources just had two thoughts in mind: "Take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints" and "If you carry it in, carry it out" we'd be in a lot better shape...
griffin
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Someone should have pushed those golfers over the edge.
JoshandBaron
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How dare you suggest that Ben Shapiro would actively push some sort of right wing agenda! For Shame!
JoshandBaron
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How do you folks reconcile summit cannisters?
TCD
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Well if the threadjacking is over, maybe we can discuss the actual topic of the OP.
JoshandBaron, that's a good question. There is a lot of man-made stuff in the woods. The range includes historical artifacts and structures, trails, trail signs and markers, canisters, garbage, etc..
Each area has to have an honest conversation and policy about what they want in the woods, and what they do not want in the woods. In most areas, I think most people agree that we do not want garbage, diapers, golf balls, etc. in the woods. (In the Adirondacks, specifically, the 46ers have long ago removed the summit canisters based on conversations years ago.)
In some areas, the people using the area agree that we do want trails, markers, signs, canisters, etc.. I think where the biggest failings have been, both in NY and NH, are in not realistically managing this. In the Adirondacks again, the failings are coming based on the State promoting the area as a tourist destination, but then trying to manage it as a "wilderness." We have a rolling disaster going on as a result, with no end in sight.
The lesson is that the important thing is to come to a common sense agreement, and then do a good job of maintaining whatever is agreed upon.
JoshandBaron, that's a good question. There is a lot of man-made stuff in the woods. The range includes historical artifacts and structures, trails, trail signs and markers, canisters, garbage, etc..
Each area has to have an honest conversation and policy about what they want in the woods, and what they do not want in the woods. In most areas, I think most people agree that we do not want garbage, diapers, golf balls, etc. in the woods. (In the Adirondacks, specifically, the 46ers have long ago removed the summit canisters based on conversations years ago.)
In some areas, the people using the area agree that we do want trails, markers, signs, canisters, etc.. I think where the biggest failings have been, both in NY and NH, are in not realistically managing this. In the Adirondacks again, the failings are coming based on the State promoting the area as a tourist destination, but then trying to manage it as a "wilderness." We have a rolling disaster going on as a result, with no end in sight.
The lesson is that the important thing is to come to a common sense agreement, and then do a good job of maintaining whatever is agreed upon.
iAmKrzys
Member
IMHO, the problem of trash in (National) Parks is just an extension of what happens in the cities. I once complained about trash along Path Train tracks - I got a reply that they would look into this, and years later I see the same trash every morning. Sad.
egilbe
Member
I used to walk a two mile loop in Kennebunk with a group of co-workers at lunchtime. Every day we saw the same trash. We got sick of the trash along our walk, so one day, I grabbed some garbage bags and nitrile gloves and we picked up the trash along our route. The first time we got 4 30 gallon trash bags filled with assorted diapers, discarded mail, empty nip bottles, cans, bottles and the like. The next day, it was clean. It became a semi-annual event. Nothing more to complain about.
Be that somebody that that you wish would cleanup our natural areas.
Be that somebody that that you wish would cleanup our natural areas.
DayTrip
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Yes it is a cultural thing. We've been conditioned to believe it is OK to fling cigarette butts out the window, throw a candy wrapper on the ground, etc. I remember seeing an interesting documentary several years back about this. They visited Tokyo, a city in Chile (forget which one) and their public subways were as clean as restaurant kitchens. And not because they had an extensive maintenance program but because it was culturally unthinkable to throw trash on ground, paint grafitti, etc. Not sure if it has remained that way over the years but it was a striking contrast to the "me first" attitude in the US.
CaptCaper
Active member
I've been to the Nat Parks out West 5 times. Did 11 of them last year covering 9000 miles rt and doing at least 4 this Sept. and never seen trash at all any where. But this is Sept not summer like I said. Different crowds then.
Talk to any long term forest service or national park service employee and they will tell the sad tale of doing more with far less people. The reality is there used to be lot more federal employees picking up trash per visitor and more importantly being present to deter folks from dumping it. Usage of the parks is up and staffing is down which makes for a bad situation. Maintaining trash cans is labor intensive and haulage and tippage fees are steep at landfills. In many cases, the landfills are quite remote so unless the government uses a contractor it may be several hours of staff time just to drive to the landfill to dump and return. The solution has been to remove trash barrels and hope that carry in/carry out signs will encourage folks to do so that the staff can be cut and once they are off the budget, they are gone for good. Trash and bad habits beget more trash and more bad habits.
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hikerbrian
Active member
For whatever it's worth, we didn't see any trash at all at Yellowstone or Grand Teton last year, and we were there at the height of tourist season. In fact, I've seen more toilet paper directly on trails in the Whites this year than I saw trash of any kind at those parks last year. At Yellowstone we were in the front country at all of the standard tourist stops. In Grand Teton it was only back country. Consistently, those two parks were very clean. Now, traffic was not such a rosy subject...
Seriously, the toilet paper situation in the Whites has got to change. TF is wrong with people. [Sorry for implied curse word. This subject impacts my blood pressure.]
Seriously, the toilet paper situation in the Whites has got to change. TF is wrong with people. [Sorry for implied curse word. This subject impacts my blood pressure.]
DayTrip
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The past two Springs I've been doing a lot of trips to the Catskills and find it pretty common there too. They also apparently like their fires because you can find a well trampled camp site with a huge, well used fire ring on just about any summit above 3500', despite both of these things being expressly prohibited on their website and signs right on the trails. People are just conditioned to ignore authority now and do whatever suits their needs.
TP issue to me is related to the proliferation of winter hiking. What is buried in the snow becomes visible in the spring. Assuming the same percentage of people will leave trash behind, if there are more hiking there will be more TP being used, and more left behind.
Salty
Active member
My personal view:
1) Not trash. It's a purposeful object marking a summit.
2) It's a small object.
3) You're unlikely to stumble upon it unless you are peakbagging, and the canister is usually welcome by peakbaggers.
I know it opens up a can of worms like "is it ok to have 5 million geocaches then?", but my response would be there's bigger fish to fry at the moment. As far as Wilderness(TM) summits, very mixed feelings, though I certainly wouldn't be hurt if they were taken away.
KV
Member
I would echo this. I was in Glacier at the shoulder of peak and saw very little trash. I generally pick trash up as I hike and I picked up a minimal amount while hiking - which we did each of the 7 days there. I pick up more on a short hike here than I did in all my hiking there. Full disclosure: I draw the line at TP. Won't even go there - you don't have time for my rant.
Hillwalker
Active member
The impact of facial tissue (kleenex) versus toilet tissue (TP). After five annual trips to Spain to hike on the various Camino's de Santiago and seeing all the "TP" blossoms along this quite crowded set of Pilgrimage routes I think I have made a discovery related to the problem.
In Spain many people tend to carry facial tissue packets rather than a roll of TP for their countryside bowel evacuation, or on the distaff side, urine wiping. I think that this is why the blossoms exist for such a long period of time:
Is there a difference between tissue paper and toilet paper?
Facial tissue and toilet paper is basically the same thing, a disposable wiper made from paper pulp. Toilet paper is designed to dissolve quickly in water so that it will not clog pipes or damage septic systems and municipal sewer processing machinery. Facial tissue is manufactured in a way that makes the surface smoother than toilet paper which gives a softer feel to the paper. Facial tissue also often contains lotions, perfumes, and other softeners to make the tissue feel better when used to blow or wipe noses. Facial tissue does not dissolve in water as rapidly as toilet paper and should not be flushed. (from https://www.supplytime.com/Blogs/Blog/What-is-the-Difference-Between-Toilet-Paper-and-Facial-Tissue)
Does this solve the problem? No, but maybe now we know a little something about the problem.
In Spain many people tend to carry facial tissue packets rather than a roll of TP for their countryside bowel evacuation, or on the distaff side, urine wiping. I think that this is why the blossoms exist for such a long period of time:
Is there a difference between tissue paper and toilet paper?
Facial tissue and toilet paper is basically the same thing, a disposable wiper made from paper pulp. Toilet paper is designed to dissolve quickly in water so that it will not clog pipes or damage septic systems and municipal sewer processing machinery. Facial tissue is manufactured in a way that makes the surface smoother than toilet paper which gives a softer feel to the paper. Facial tissue also often contains lotions, perfumes, and other softeners to make the tissue feel better when used to blow or wipe noses. Facial tissue does not dissolve in water as rapidly as toilet paper and should not be flushed. (from https://www.supplytime.com/Blogs/Blog/What-is-the-Difference-Between-Toilet-Paper-and-Facial-Tissue)
Does this solve the problem? No, but maybe now we know a little something about the problem.
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