46-year-old hiker from Hinesburg dies on Hunger Mountain trail

[SAR-EMT40]

Did I suggest active intervention in this (or any other) case? That is not at all what I am getting at. My own living will includes a specific DNR order. I continue to find fault with the behavior of those companions who left this fellow sitting beside the trail. (They left a nice surprise for the other party to stumble across, didn't they?) He should not have been left alone unless there was some compelling reason to do so (which attaining a summit certainly is not, and so they were not facing anything that could be characterized as a dilemma). I think this sorry incident very clearly illustrates the validity of that old rule about starting, staying and finishing together when you hike in a group setting. No quibbling.

G.

I think that I have very clearly expressed my position on the matter. I respect your position but just as clearly I do not agree with it. I can live with that.

I know I am legally and feel ethically justified in my position. So for me, that is good enough.

Keith

 

[dr_wu002]

I do, however, believe, and have clearly stated my belief that when we agree to go together we take on certain ethical obligations, one of which is to look out for one another. I do not regard leaving a companion sitting alone beside the trail while one goes on to the summit as looking out for one another.

Whatever. Few weeks ago we were doing a long hike and some wanted to do an additional peak, some didn't. We split off, met up later in the hike. You're really gonna sit there and tell me there's something wrong with that?

Look, this poor dude could have gone on a hike alone too and died alone. If he had some history of heart problems or he genuinely seemed ill and his friends took off on him, sure you can find some fault. But you're not going to go around ridiculously dictating how groups should work based on isolated tragedies like this. Don't tell me how to hike.

-Dr. Wu

 

[mookie]

i dunno.

i dont see the problem with leaving him. if they had known he was having medical issues then left him would be a differnt story. if someone tells me they are ok then i trust that they are ok. if somone told me they were having chest pains and cardiac issues then i would obviously not keep going.
obviously if there were weather issues of if route finding issues i would stay with/wait for hiking partners.

i have hiked with groups of friends many times and very rarely are we "hiking" together. we may wait for each other on summits but i have yet to be on a group where everyone hikes the same pace the entire hike. hike yer' own hike.....

oh yeah, rarely am i the guy in the front anyway. usually the one being waited for ! and i never expect anyone to wait up for me.

 

[dr_wu002]

I think that everyone out there needs to take responsibility for themselves. If you tell the rest of your party to go on ahead, then that's was your decision. If something winds up happening to you, then it's your responsibility.

i dunno.

i dont see the problem with leaving him. if they had known he was having medical issues then left him would be a differnt story. if someone tells me they are ok then i trust that they are ok. if somone told me they were having chest pains and cardiac issues then i would obviously not keep going.
obviously if there were weather issues of if route finding issues i would stay with/wait for hiking partners.

i have hiked with groups of friends many times and very rarely are we "hiking" together. we may wait for each other on summits but i have yet to be on a group where everyone hikes the same pace the entire hike. hike yer' own hike.....

Thankfully there are some beacons of rationality left!

-Dr. Wu

 

[mookie]

besides,
the only good thing about hiking with groups is the car spot and people to drink beer with after....

 

[Elizabeth]

I agree with Taconic and Roy. As a slow-but-ambitious hiker (NOT a "weak" hiker) I mostly go solo to avoid issues of making people wait for me. If I am with friends, I would like for them to go at their own pace and just wait for me at trail junctions, outlooks, or summits. Otherwise, if I felt that I was holding them back, I would actually be less safe because I would try to rush - which could bring on an asthma attack or lead to possible injury.

 

[erugs]

Don't tell me how to hike. -Dr. Wu

Saying that others are telling you how to hike is a little strong. I think what others have been posting are their own philosophies. We can clearly see that there are many lines. This is always the case.

For me, the reason I hike is social combined with physical. For me, the social aspect comes first. For me, and I can see that I am not alone with this, staying primarily together is the obligation I assume to be standard when I'm with a group. When I'm hiking alone and come across others, I feel no obligation to stay with them, but if I have arranged to hike with others, and perhaps have commuted with them, their presence is important, as I hope mine is to them. Sometimes that "obligation" has more to do with being a good citizen, like last Sunday coming off Washington late when we met up with a guy who didn't have a flashlight and invited him to walk along with us.

Sharing of experiences is important to me and not as easily done alone. To paraphrase Mark Twain, I've learned that "to get the full value of a joy...have somebody to divide it with." That's what I want in life. But like most everyone I know, I'll pick and choose my companions.

 

[mirabela]

What's probably most important to reiterate here is what Blue mentioned -- men having heart attacks often deny they are having heart attacks, and will minimize the problem and say something to the effect of no, I'm just <tired / having a bad day / suffering indigestion / dehydrated / zapped from last night / whatever>, go on ahead without me.

OK, and what % of time are men just having a bad day vs actually having a heart attack? I've turned around on a bad day and told my friends to go ahead. I never thought this was an issue. We're all adults, regardless, and the individual has the right to make their own decision...

Exactly. My point is only that when someone says this, it warrants a few questions, maybe even pointed ones (i.e. are you experiencing any pain? Numbness or tingling? Shortness of breath?) before parting ways.

I think many members of this discussion are quite draconian and black/white in their views. When I don't hike alone, I travel with groups ranging from two avid & experienced mountaineers, to organized groups of youth or adults, to groups including my both my 5-year-old son and my 76-year-old mother-in-law. I'm a Wilderness First Responder and a past trainer of other youth outdoor leaders; I've worked for the GMC, the AMC, and Outward Bound; I've led trips for the Sierra Club, etc. I'm pretty conversant in outdoor leadership, wilderness medicine and risk management, and the bottom line is there are some people I would comfortably part ways with in the woods, and others I would not; there are situations in which I would comfortably separate and situations in which I would not. Almost any bright-line rule we try to lay down for all people in all situations is going to get it wrong. Probably the best thing we can do is to communicate clearly with our partners, groups, or leaders, about what we will expect, and what can be expected of us, in various likely scenarios.

 

[David Metsky]

the bottom line is there are some people I would comfortably part ways with in the woods, and others I would not; there are situations in which I would comfortably separate and situations in which I would not. Almost any bright-line rule we try to lay down for all people in all situations is going to get it wrong. Probably the best thing we can do is to communicate clearly with our partners, groups, or leaders, about what we will expect, and what can be expected of us, in various likely scenarios.

This sums up my philosophy very well.

 

[dr_wu002]

For me, the reason I hike is social combined with physical. For me, the social aspect comes first. For me, and I can see that I am not alone with this, staying primarily together is the obligation I assume to be standard when I'm with a group. When I'm hiking alone and come across others, I feel no obligation to stay with them, but if I have arranged to hike with others, and perhaps have commuted with them, their presence is important, as I hope mine is to them.

I agree, and I like the social aspect (usually). Actually, I most of the time hike with other people. But people have to understand that different people are going to work together differently. Sure, when we planned a recent Great Range Traverse we talked beforehand about what people wanted to do, if we were going to split up etc. In fact, a few of us bailed a little early to get started on picking up the cars we had spotted (so we could get to drinkin!). Other times I'll be on a hike and someone will want to run a section and I won't; I'm not going to say, hey don't run away! Whatever, I'm cool with people going ahead... I'm not going to hold someone back. Likewise, if I'm out hiking with someone, I'll sometimes take off into a run and don't even look back -- if they're with me, fine -- if not, they'll catch up. It can't be too bad a situation because I hike with the same people all the time and nobody seems to mind. You do your thing and I'll do mine. But, if someone asked me to stay with them or if they seemed hurt or injured of course I wouldn't abandon them.

-Dr. Wu

 

[Maddy]

Would having an experience dealing with a friend's fatal outcome change anyone's mind about leaving a group member, aka "friend", behind on a trail?

I remember being injured on the Tuckeman trail but able to walk out. Word got out to other hikers that someone was injured. Suddenly a young skier appeared off the Shelburne ski trail and walked me back down. I told him he didn't need to do this but he insisted saying he "really didn't feel like skiing anyway." I suspect that might have been a little white lie. He took my pack and helped me with my dog. What a selfless person. I was very grateful for the help. I sure hope no one leaves him behind on a hike if he is not feeling up to snuff.

Sometimes people are embarrassed by the fact that they cannot keep up for whatever reason. They don't want to ruin your day. It's so easy to say to someone "I'm really tired today so I will hang out with you. No big deal. "

I'm with Grumpy. We are graduates of the same "old school." I could not have a good time wondering if the friend I left behind was OK, never mind having to deal with the fact the h/she died alone on a trail. Somehow thinking that the outcome would have been the same doesn't do it for me.

I would not leave my dog behind. Why would I leave a friend? I honestly cannot wrap my mind around this.

 

[mookie]

Would having an experience dealing with a friend's fatal outcome change anyone's mind about leaving a group member, aka "friend", behind on a trail?

I remember being injured on the Tuckeman trail but able to walk out. Word got out to other hikers that someone was injured. Suddenly a young skier appeared off the Shelburne ski trail and walked me back down. I told him he didn't need to do this but he insisted saying he "really didn't feel like skiing anyway." I suspect that might have been a little white lie. He took my pack and helped me with my dog. What a selfless person. I was very grateful for the help. I sure hope no one leaves him behind on a hike if he is not feeling up to snuff.

Sometimes people are embarrassed by the fact that they cannot keep up for whatever reason. They don't want to ruin your day. It's so easy to say to someone "I'm really tired today so I will hang out with you. No big deal. "

I'm with Grumpy. We are graduates of the same "old school." I could not have a good time wondering if the friend I left behind was OK, never mind having to deal with the fact the h/she died alone on a trail. Somehow thinking that the outcome would have been the same doesn't do it for me.

I would not leave my dog behind. Why would I leave a friend? I honestly cannot wrap my mind around this.

because a friend telling you they are tired and friend being injured are two totally different scenarios.....

 

[dr_wu002]

I remember being injured on the Tuckeman trail but able to walk out. Word got out to other hikers that someone was injured. Suddenly a young skier appeared off the Shelburne ski trail and walked me back down. I told him he didn't need to do this but he insisted saying he "really didn't feel like skiing anyway." I suspect that might have been a little white lie. He took my pack and helped me with my dog. What a selfless person. I was very grateful for the help. I sure hope no one leaves him behind on a hike if he is not feeling up to snuff. .

I think there are two scenarios here. There's the "see ya" scenario where people gotta get a peak even if there's someone lagging behind, maybe injured, maybe has a history of health problems, maybe is not an experienced hiker. etc. Scenario two is you're with a group of people you know well, are cool with etc. They want to go off and do their own thing on a hike, or run ahead, get an extra peak, whatever -- there's nothing wrong with that if everyone is cool with it. It doesn't even have to be discussed, you have some faith in your friends sometimes... I can't see how there could be anything wrong with that. Sure, someone could get injured but that's how life goes. I oftentimes wonder if my friends are going to murder me some day so I guess it works both ways. The situation gets more iffy, I think, when it's a group of people that don't know each other well or something. But a bunch of friends out having fun don't need to be holding hands the whole time...

I would not leave my dog behind. Why would I leave a friend? I honestly cannot wrap my mind around this

I think the difference is that you own your dog and it relies on you, almost entirely, for its well being. Friends will rely on each other for varying degrees. Some more. Some rely on you for a car spot and beer at the end of the hike. Some friends are imaginary and you take them on your solo hikes. I would never abandon a friend ever. Strangers... I've helped strangers before, carried out packs, given food and water etc. I've also abandoned weirdo strangers that I didn't want hiking with me (although I probably would not abandon an injured wierdo unless they were a total freak or violent or insisted that I leave them alone which has happened -- maybe they don't want help from a fellow weirdo). I'm totally cool with friends going off and doing their own thing, especially when we know each other well etc. There's a difference between going off and doing other things and abandoning though.

-Dr. Wu

 

[Maddy]

because a friend telling you they are tired and friend being injured are two totally different scenarios.....

I totally agree.
I did not know this person. I was not even his friend.
I cited this example because I was amazed that he cared enough to give up his afternoon of skiing to help a complete stranger, even after he could see that I was upright and able to negotiate the trail, albeit slowly. He was really a kind soul and a great companion for a few hours.

My dog does depend on me but friends do to when we are hiking together. That is the point I was trying to make.

I cannot recall who this happened to but it was a woman member of VFTT. She had gone hiking with a "group" and was left behind, much to her dismay. We had a similar discussion at the time about this very topic. I recall that she was very upset when it happened to her.

Outward Bound certainly taught us that you don't ever leave someone under any circumstances, unless it's to get help. I paid big bucks for that course so I think I will continue to practice what they preach. I respect that it's not for everyone but I can live with it.

 

[dr_wu002]

I cannot recall who this happened to but it was a woman member of VFTT. She had gone hiking with a "group" and was left behind, much to her dismay. We had a similar discussion at the time about this very topic. I recall that she was very upset when it happened to her.

Outward Bound certainly taught us that you don't ever leave someone under any circumstances, unless it's to get help. I paid big bucks for that course so I think I will continue to practice what they preach. It's not for everyone but I can live with it.

Yeah, if you want to stick together as a group or you don't feel as comfortable and your group leaves you, yeah, you've got a problem... most people eventually hike solo or find a group of like-minded people to hike with. Feeling abandoned sucks.

But if it's a group of friends that all feel comfortable doing their own thing I don't see a problem with that. I've had situations where on a backpack some people separated and didn't even show up where we were supposed to camp that evening... and it wasn't an issues, I knew that they were competent hikers and certainly responsible for their well being so it was fine. They certainly didn't feel abandoned because they were having fun doing what they were doing and there was some understanding that yes, we're a group, but people are also free to do their own thing. You might say, "well, what if they died??" and if they did that's something the rest of us would all have to live with and that's that.

-Dr. Wu

 

[mirabela]

Outward Bound certainly taught us that you don't ever leave someone under any circumstances, unless it's to get help. I paid big bucks for that course so I think I will continue to practice what they preach.

I can cite at least four examples from personal experience where, on OB courses, one participant was allowed to remain behind, go ahead, or pursue an alternate route.

I'm not saying that just because it happened on an Outward Bound course it was the right thing to do, either. Just this: even a rigidly protocol-driven organization like OB recognizes that reality in the outdoors is wholly situational.

 

[Craig]

I observed 1 guy in a group of 3 fall ill to altitude sickness at about 13K on Long Peak in Colorado last year. This guy was so sick he had to lie down next to the trail and couldn’t continue. His 2 companions left him there in order to bag the peak. They told him, “We’ll pick you up on the way back”. It would have taken them about 3 hours to summit and return.

I caught up to the 2 and highly recommended that they didn’t leave their companion behind. I had to be quite blunt with them as it was obvious peak fever had a firm grip on them.

Some folks don’t have the capacity to make appropriate situational decisions.

When you have folks like that, then ‘one size fits all’ rules are probably the next best thing.

 

[Maddy]

I can cite at least four examples from personal experience where, on OB courses, one participant was allowed to remain behind, go ahead, or pursue an alternate route.

I'm not saying that just because it happened on an Outward Bound course it was the right thing to do, either. Just this: even a rigidly protocol-driven organization like OB recognizes that reality in the outdoors is wholly situational.

Very interesting.


PM me is you are willing to share more specifics. I would love to hear about it. The instructors knew our whereabouts at all times and all individuals had to function as group members, helping each other. You must be an OB alumnus Would love to chat more about it.
Was this part of a teaching plan?
I cannot fathom them leaving a student alone who was not up to snuff and announced that h/she was going back to base.

I don't want to get to far afield of the topic here.

 

[Grumpy]

... I've had situations where on a backpack some people separated and didn't even show up where we were supposed to camp that evening... and it wasn't an issues, ...

-Dr. Wu

This actually did happen to an acquaintance of mine in the spring of 2009, on the Appalachian Trail in Virginia. My acquaintance, who happens to be legally blind is a very experienced hiker -- even goes on extended solo trips. In this case he arranged what I could best describe as a cooperative venture with a bunch of people, who "organized" themselves via the internet, met and set out, staying more-or-less together.

Things didn't go all that well. At one point my acquaintance wandered off the trail, and became lost. Those wonderful companions of his failed to "notice" his absence from the party for 2-3 days -- it was that long before anyone bothered to report his having gone missing.

Luckily, all turned out well for my acquaintance. I admire his spunk. I hold his hiking companions in disdain for their shortage of what I would call, for lack of a better term, simple social responsibility. I shake my head that my acquaintance was not carrying one of those personal locator beacons, given his limitations, even though he definitely is a techno-geek. That would seem to be a socially responsible thing for him to do, on his own part, it seems to me. My conclusion is that I am unlikely ever to be much of a new-ager.

As matter of disclosure, I find this issue to be especially sensitive at this moment in time, having landed in the hospital ER a week-and-a-half ago suffering from congestive heart failure. Symptoms? Intense fatigue and shortness of breath. Hell, I've felt that more than once on hikes over the last 55 years! Doing much better now, supported by supplemental oxygen and some meds to cope with fluid buildup. Underlying cause of this excitement was lung cancer, diagnosed two years ago and which will not go away. My hiking days almost certainly are over and done with. But I am happy my companions last week didn't leave me to catch my breath while they went on with their own things. I never was alone in crisis, and that in itself was of some comfort.

G.

 

[Maddy]

most people eventually hike solo or find a group of like-minded people to hike with. Feeling abandoned sucks.
-Dr. Wu

Your are right. Finding a group of like-minded people is critical. You need to more or less be on the same page if you are going to function cohesively.