A bunch of rescues last weekend

[Driver8]

I don't doubt people are genuinely trying to be helpful. I have met enough people who were wrong about which trail they were on, or which one they wanted to be on, and how far / how long it was to go. Unless you have gotten your information from a reliable source, book, map, research, it's unknown how good it is.

Not sure I follow you. If you're referring to the interaction I had with the group on Zealand, my sources were AMC maps, Smith & Dickerman's 4k's book, and my own observations having just hiked the trail in question. And as noted, the interaction was welcome and appreciated, according to my counterparties.

If one holds out for certainty in life, one seldom will do anything. Presented with an opportunity to be helpful by people asking directly for it, I was happy to oblige. Others might respond differently in the same situation. Vive la difference. ...

You make a fair point about misinformation. Countless times have I been given incorrect information on trail, from countless sources. For heaven's sake, the Vermont State Parks' view guide at Ascutney's obs tower labels Lafayette as Washington (just right of Moosilauke) and Kinsman as Liberty (just left). All one can do is sort the wheat from the chaff with the incoming and do one's level best to minimize error with the outgoing.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I was not specifically referring to your interaction, Chris... just a general point for the readership that just because somebody looks or sounds like they know what they are talking about does not necessarily make it so. In other words, learn to be self reliant. And, if you are a leader, keep an eye open for the "tag alongs", those who have no intention of doing their homework and just want to follow a group or leader to a goal and back to the car. If it's just you and one of these tag alongs, what are the chances they could get help if something happened to you?

Tim

 

[TJsName]

I think Tim might have been getting at the difference between someone who is experienced and can generally tell if someone knows their stuff and beginners who don't have a great baseline to detect BS. The beginner is forced go on how honest the person seems, which might help, but it's not a great way to go. I've had people (both in and out of my party) very sincerely tell me very wrong things, and it's not until we take out a map and sort it out that they realize their mistake. Being self-reliant is very important.

With the gang I typically hike with I do a lot of the planning and just let people know the trails, time (estimates), and what generally to expect in terms of conditions (tread, water, weather). They know what to bring and are able to navigate without me though, but they have remarked many times that they love not having to plan out the hikes. I suspect that there are a lot of people, especially beginners, that don't like doing the homework, and just go by a map or a website. One of the main pieces of advice I give people is to get the most recent AMC White Mountain Guide and to read the descriptions.

 

[David Metsky]

I was hiking north on the Crawford Path one very cloudy day with 50' visibility, going around Monroe. A couple of hikers headed towards me (going south on the Crawford Path) asked how far was it to Mt Washington. I finally got to use the line "About 25,000 miles and some stretches are mighty wet." After an appropriate stony-faced pause I turned them around, brought them to the hut, and sent them in the right direction.

 

[DayTrip]

I finally got to use the line "About 25,000 miles and some stretches are mighty wet."

LOL! That one is going in the "toolbox" for future use.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Then you have the case where you don't know the answer and the person asking gets mad at you for being honest and saying you don't know.

I was accosted by a woman between Jefferson and Adams once because I could not tell her exactly how much further she had to go.

Tim

 

[TJsName]

Then you have the case where you don't know the answer and the person asking gets mad at you for being honest and saying you don't know.

I was accosted by a woman between Jefferson and Adams once because I could not tell her exactly how much further she had to go.

Tim

And some people want distance to go, and others want time!

 

[peakbagger]

A story from an somewhat infamous Meetup trip leader. The organizer sets a very aggressive Mahoosucs in day hike which required a car spot at the Notch trailhead on Success Pond Road. The organizer has a late night the evening before and decides that the hike will be cut short. The leader decides to take the Wright trail down off the ridge. The folks with the leader follow the leader down the trail. Around dusk they come out on the end of the Bull Branch road and the leader insists that they are just a short walk away from the car. They chance upon a few locals and the leader decides that they have no clue what they are talking about and decides to argue the point. The hikers in the group restrain the leader and luckily convince the locals to give them a shuttle back to their car on Success Pond road, which is about 35 miles away. The grateful hikers pony up a significant tip for the locals and decide that they wont be joining the trip leader on nay more hikes.

We could blame it on meetup but even Gene Daniels reportedly ended up on the wrong side of the mountain on occasion (generally when doing advanced bushwhacks)

 

[David Metsky]

I remember encountering a couple on Mt Resolution by the old shelter one February or March around 1:00 PM. They had full packs and I asked where they were headed. The guy said Lakes of the Clouds. I mentioned that there's no camping within 1/4 mile of the hut and he seemed a bit taken aback that it wasn't going to offer them any shelter. At that point I said based on how long it had taken them to make it to Resolution I was pretty sure they wouldn't make to Lakes until well after dark and suggested other places along the Davis Path where they could camp. The woman was interested in hearing more but the guy cut me off so I packed up and continued on my way. Since they weren't going to make to treeline by dark anyway I didn't really worry about it.

 

[sierra]

I was hiking north on the Crawford Path one very cloudy day with 50' visibility, going around Monroe. A couple of hikers headed towards me (going south on the Crawford Path) asked how far was it to Mt Washington. I finally got to use the line "About 25,000 miles and some stretches are mighty wet." After an appropriate stony-faced pause I turned them around, brought them to the hut, and sent them in the right direction.

I rarely laugh at 6.30 am thanks for that.
I rarely give advice unless asked. People who seem to need it, also seem to not really want it for some odd reason. I once tried to turn around a small party asending the cone on Washington in late winter/early spring conditions. They had no traction and street clothes and jackets. One woman, two men, one of the men was gun ho and the other two were just following him. I was descending and the conditions were awesome if you could navigate in the clouds and had crampons on, not to mention the high winds. The so called leader scoffed at my advice to turn around . I calmly looked at the other two and said, " If you follow him, your in trouble period". I then said have a good day and left them to whatever they decided.

 

[Red Oak]

I rarely laugh at 6.30 am thanks for that.
I rarely give advice unless asked. People who seem to need it, also seem to not really want it for some odd reason. I once tried to turn around a small party asending the cone on Washington in late winter/early spring conditions. They had no traction and street clothes and jackets. One woman, two men, one of the men was gun ho and the other two were just following him. I was descending and the conditions were awesome if you could navigate in the clouds and had crampons on, not to mention the high winds. The so called leader scoffed at my advice to turn around . I calmly looked at the other two and said, " If you follow him, your in trouble period". I then said have a good day and left them to whatever they decided.

That was the best way to handle that. They did not get the message and you told them they were being foolish if they went higher in a nice way. Franconia notch seems to always have the most terribly underprepared hikers. I always find people up there in late fall without gloves or hats shivering and trying to look like they are having fun.

 

[dug]

It's a fine line, and hard to discern who is prepared and who is not.

I was once scolded one raging hot summer day by some AMC trip leader when he saw my light pack and cotton t-shirt. He told me I didn't have enough gear with me and I was wearing all the wrong clothes. It was 95 degrees and humid as hell, so I always wear cotton in that weather. I just told him "all set" as I wandered by.

As I left, he took it upon himself for a "teaching moment" as I overheard him tell lieges "we'll be reading about him tomorrow in the paper, dead from hyperthermia. Cotton kills."

Also, you may not know where I'm going so don't tell me if I'm there. I've been known to call it quits on a false summit or some knob. I don't bag any longer, I hike for the sake of exercise. It's amazing how many people tell me "you aren't at the summit. Doesn't count unless you go all the way".

 

[Driver8]

Then you have the case where you don't know the answer and the person asking gets mad at you for being honest and saying you don't know.

I was accosted by a woman between Jefferson and Adams once because I could not tell her exactly how much further she had to go.

Tim

Yeah, sometimes the best answer is "I don't know." For those who want to know how long in time, I always say "it depends on your pace."

I think I best enjoy encountering A.T. thru-hikers on the trail, usually in CT or Mass, sometimes further north. I love to share with them tidbits about views, towns and other stuff they may find useful - they're so smart and trail-hardened, so they appreciate good info and don't need to address more basic issues.

My big thing today, in SW Mass, where the bulge of thru-hikers is passing by, was to encourage them to make the quick side-trip to Zeacliffs. That made an impression on me.

 

[Raven]

Also, you may not know where I'm going so don't tell me if I'm there. I've been known to call it quits on a false summit or some knob. I don't bag any longer, I hike for the sake of exercise. It's amazing how many people tell me "you aren't at the summit. Doesn't count unless you go all the way".

This is a good one. I love when people assume where I am going. Sometimes, I haven't even decided yet. I think these same people ask questions like, "is THIS the trail down?"

Yesterday on a Pressie traverse with 4 friends, a solo hiker, nice enough but with an arrogant air, decided to give us the backhanded compliment, "I GUESS you are making okay time." I find this interesting considering he did not know our start time and therefore had no clue as to our pace. Of course, pace doesn't matter if you don't have a target finish time, so I don't even agree with the underlying assumption behind the question.

It is certainly an interesting dynamic out there. If people are nice enough about it and simply trying to be helpful, that never bothers me. I don't much care for the blanket statements people like to hold onto without any other considerations (never wear cotton like you mentioned, never hike solo, never start late, never split up a group). Absolutes like this are dangerous when they take the place of dynamic thinking and decision making based on circumstance. I think as mentioned earlier by Roy, these absolutes and rule lists are great for new hikers learning the ropes so to speak. With experience though, I think people come to realize there are no absolutes and safe travel in the mountains is a result of multiple factors which may vary widely from individual to individual.

Good discussion.

 

[jniehof]

This is a good one. I love when people assume where I am going. Sometimes, I haven't even decided yet. I think these same people ask questions like, "is THIS the trail down?"

I know I've told this one before here, but it's been awhile. Coming off the LT to the cars in App Gap. Someone pulls up (NY plates, infer as you wish) and asks "Where does this trail go?" "Er, in this direction, Canada, across the road, to Massachusetts and then on to Georgia." Did not believe me and was rather annoyed that I wouldn't give him a straight answer....

 

[sierra]

Once I was descending the Tucks trail and was 1/2 mile below the Hunnington Ravine trail junction when I ran into a group of women. One of the ladies asked me how close they were to the top!! I said you mean the summit? she replied yes it cant be that far. I answered as truthfull as I could. I said, if you think your that close you should not go on, you have know idea what your in for imo. She was not happy and I lost the chance of a lifetime friend right there.

 

[skiguy]

I was once scolded one raging hot summer day by some AMC trip leader when he saw my light pack and cotton t-shirt. He told me I didn't have enough gear with me and I was wearing all the wrong clothes. It was 95 degrees and humid as hell, so I always wear cotton in that weather.

I have had very similar experiences. I usually respond that most of the time I hike naked and you happen to be catching me on a cold day. It shuts them up real fast.

 

[peakbagger]

I tend to suffer fools on occasion. If the folks appear to be clueless I usually offer to pull my map out and show them approximately where they are on the trail and try to orient them from where they started and where they are going. Usually their eyes glaze over. If they seem interested, I ask them when they started and based on the current location make a rather conservative guess on when they will be to their intended destinations and when they will get back down to their car. Throw in a question if they have overnight gear or at least a flashlight and occasionally I will get a group to pick a new objective.

My assumption is I to was clueless at one point long ago and others put up with it so I am just paying some past hiker forward.

 

[Driver8]

I tend to suffer fools on occasion. If the folks appear to be clueless I usually offer to pull my map out and show them approximately where they are on the trail and try to orient them from where they started and where they are going. Usually their eyes glaze over. If they seem interested, I ask them when they started and based on the current location make a rather conservative guess on when they will be to their intended destinations and when they will get back down to their car. Throw in a question if they have overnight gear or at least a flashlight and occasionally I will get a group to pick a new objective.

My assumption is I to was clueless at one point long ago and others put up with it so I am just paying some past hiker forward.

I'm with you, peakbagger.

As to cotton, I avoid it, generally, but recently it came in handy. July 5 was a much cooler morning than I'd expected. I hadn't made the last-minute weather check before leaving CT, and so didn't bring a jacket or at least a heavier shirt. My long-sleeve, light, thin, wicking shirt for sun-protection and evap was not warm enough.

Solution? Reach into the travel bag before departing and get one of my cotton golf shirts. It looked goofy and awkward over the more normal hiker gear, but it provided me just that extra bit of warm that I needed - nary a shiver from that point forward. Once I got to the ridge line, the early afternoon sun had worked its magic, but in the meantime, that cotton was a welcome friend.

Error on my part not to have more carefully gone through the checklist pre-hike, but being adaptable to conditions and using available tools, as discussed by others above, got me through.

 

[DayTrip]

I was once scolded one raging hot summer day by some AMC trip leader when he saw my light pack and cotton t-shirt. He told me I didn't have enough gear with me and I was wearing all the wrong clothes. It was 95 degrees and humid as hell, so I always wear cotton in that weather. I just told him "all set" as I wandered by.

As I left, he took it upon himself for a "teaching moment" as I overheard him tell lieges "we'll be reading about him tomorrow in the paper, dead from hyperthermia. Cotton kills."

Stories like these and others in similar threads about group size, etc make me question the worth of these AMC groups. What exactly are they teaching or not teaching to throngs of new hikers when they make idiotic statements like that? So now there will be 10 more idiots erroneously passing judgement on cotton t-shirts to even more hikers. We need to teach people HOW to think, not WHAT to think. If cotton's biggest downfall is that it wicks moisture away from the body and cools it off that kinda sounds like a BENEFIT to me on a hot humid day. If that AMC trip leader doesn't understand that I would not want him or her out there "teaching" others anything.

And an unrelated favorite is when someone asks you a question so you answer/explain it and then they reply "that's not how you do that". If you already know well then don't ask me and shut up already!