A few more ski questions

[MikeK]

Seems as though there are a few knowledgeable people on this forum when it comes to skiing so I'm going to ask a few miscellaneous questions that I haven't been able to find answers to. Most of this is what I've found to be the black area in BC Nordic skiing...

- In regards to light plastic boots such as a Scarpa T4 or Garmont Excursion, are these typically worn with or without thick socks? I wore plastic alpine boots with just liners. I don't have much issue with cold feet but I was wondering more in terms of giving up control through the boot. My feet also seem to be fairly intolerant of pressure points, etc... I have less issues with thick socks and liners.

- Does one need to tele turn with a boot like that? Or are they response to pressure edging? I've read many different accounts on skiing with boots like this and I'm a bit confused - I seem to see the term parallel skiing thrown out there from time to time. Is the telemark used to get more turning power?

I had one experience this year and I skied a pair 180cm compacts with some relatively stiff boots on groomed terrain. On a moderate hill I could turn them almost like a downhill ski using what I believe is called a parallel stem Christie turn. I wasn't truly parallel skiing them (carving). I realized after taking some advanced ski lessons in the past few years that I ski a combination of true parallel and stem Christie in alpine.

I guess this is where I get a little confused... and it's probably just lingo.

Given my current, soft, skinny skis, 3 pins and soft boots what I have learned is it is easier to pressure edge them in a wedge (stem) than it is to telemark turn them. I took a lesson and was able to make a few shaky, linked telemark turns on them... not something I'd ever rely on... I've tried it on a few hills here and there to practice but it isn't really working out. In a wedge they are pretty easy to turn. On a packed surface, I'm able to turn them back and forth fairly quickly and keep them relatively parallel (not as good as a shorter ski and stiffer boot).

I'd like to buy some plastic boots and sidecut skis. For bindings I'm thinking 3 pin cables. I'm kind of wondering what to expect. I've been guessing I'd be able to stem Christie a setup like that fairly easily unless the snow was deep and/or heavy, in which case I might need a telemark?

Not being a telemark skier I'm having a bit of an issue thinking I'll be able to really master the telemark turn, especially on light gear. I had considered AT gear to solve this problem but I really don't want to ski steep stuff and I like the feel of a 75mm for kicking and gliding... skiing flats with AT bindings looks more like walking to me.

 

[David Metsky]

Light gear like you have makes tele turns difficult in anything but very favorable conditions. It can be done by someone with a lot of skill - I learned on gear very similar to yours - but the skis and boots aren't really designed for it. The skis have little side cut so they want to go straight. The boots and bindings don't give you much lateral control so you have to get low and work hard to make them turn. In that gear I will tele in fresh soft snow, but everything else means I do mostly snowplow and hockey stops. In the backcountry, it'll be hard to do much tele except when you're in powder or other soft snow.

I use my Garmont Excursions, Fischer Outtabounds, and 3-pin cable bindings for playing around in the woods and places like Windblown. You can make tele turns and have fun, but as soon as it gets icy or manky the control goes out the window. You have to work hard in those conditions but it's still fun.

If you want to learn tele you're best bet is to rent full on tele gear at a ski area and take a lesson. The learning curve will be much quicker. Once you have the turn down you can start transfering that knowledge to your existing gear.

 

[DougPaul]

Note that one can also perform parallel turns on loose heel gear. In general, snowplow and parallel turns are easier to do hard surfaces and Tele turns are easier to do in powder. Step turns are useful in a range of conditions.

I went skiing last weekend at Windblown on groomed ice crust using relatively skinny (67-56-58) camber-and-a-half BC skis with metal edges. (Pretty much a kick-and-glide BC ski.) I can Tele turn them in good snow conditions, but parallel turns, stem Christies, and snowplow turns were the order of this day...

I also have a pair of single-camber light-Tele skis with a bit more sidecut (90-67-80). They are much easier to turn (both parallel and Tele).

Doug

 

[MikeK]

Thanks for the info guys.

I guess I was wondering more or less if I HAD to tele a freeheel ski or if they would respond to a different technique. I've heard accounts where people talk about parallel skiing on freeheel gear.

David,

I am looking into almost the exact same setup for next year. I was actually leaning towards a Madshus for the ski, but I'm pretty impressed with my wife's Fischers, and they aren't made in China. I'd like to try both the Excursion and the T4 and see what works better with my foot. I don't know that there are many others options readily available for a light tele/heavy touring boot.

 

[cushetunk]

Many people make parallel turns on freeheel gear. Most of the freeheel skiers I see around on heavier tele gear (including myself) are probably making as many parallel turns as tele turns.

 

[Chugach001]

It seems that the very best freeheel skiers mix it up. They can do the tree or bump run in tele turns but switch between parallel and tele in an unconscious art form.

We started our kids on freeheel gear and told them to just make parallel turns so they could keep up. Then they started throwing in tele turns when they could - the mandate was always on just keeping up with mom and dad. Now they throw both turns interchangeably. I suspect the next level for them is really good tele turns everywhere. And the level beyond that is back to a mix of the two.

Have fun and don't overthink it.

 

[DougPaul]

Many people make parallel turns on freeheel gear. Most of the freeheel skiers I see around on heavier tele gear (including myself) are probably making as many parallel turns as tele turns.

My freeheel parallel turn (on piste using heavy Tele gear) is better than my Tele turn...

Doug

 

[dave.m]

Mike,

I can't recommend getting light plastic boots as a way of improving your skiing. IMO, they are great tools but I think they are among the last bit of equipment to get. Here's why....

In my over simplified view of things, you can pretty cleanly distinguish between Nordic backcountry touring and Telemark skiing. The former is about point A to point B, is like rough and rugged cross-country skiing and is done mostly on ski trails, logging roads and hiking trails. Telemark is all about the joy of a well made turn, is most like downhill Alpine skiing and is done at ski areas or off trail in the woods.

The turns I use most for touring are the wedge and step turn. For telemark, the parallel and the telemark.

For touring, I use leather boots (with plastic reinforcement, such as the new Fischer BCX 675) and I use plastic boots for telemark.

Light plastic tele boots are just that. Light tele boots. I generally use them if and only if I have hopes of seeking the joy of the tele turn in the trees. But, they're not so good for learning how to make tele turns and that's the problem.

IMO, Dave Metsky is spot on recommending lessons at a ski area. I'll go beyond this a bit and explain why I don't suggest light plastic boots as the next step.

If your goal is to do more rugged and challenging Nordic touring, first, make sure you have boots up to it. Old leather tele boots with internal stiffeners in the cuff like the old Merrell Ultra or more recent but still old Merrel Fuzion or the Asolo Extreme or newer boots like the BCX 675 are capable of handling skis (for Nordic touring; mostly wedge turns) with waists in the 60mm range and even at the 70mm with some strong technique.

Second, invest in downhill Alpine ski lessons. Rent downhill equipment and take advantage of "learn to ski" packages that combine lift tickets and lessons. Do this until you are making wide track parallel turns on blue trails comfortably. The basics of Alpine turns up to this point and the basics of Nordic wedge turns are almost identical. At this point, you can take an Alpine lesson in the morning and then spend the afternoon on your Nordic touring gear on the beginner's slopes. The goal here is not to make telemark turns. Rather, to transfer the power wedge skills to the lighter free heel skis. (Bend the ankles more!!) The Alpine boots just make it easier to learn those skills at first.

Now, if your goal is to learn make tele turns, do the same thing. But once you are making wide track parallel turns on blue trails, start to rent Telemark gear and seek Telemark specific instruction. I would look for 3 buckle plastic boots, which are taller and will support your BALANCE better, allowing you to ski all day at the lift areas. Lower 2 buckle boots will likely leave your legs spent by lunch.

IMO, 2 buckle plastic boots, pins and skis like the old Karhu Guides (or current equivalents) are a great combo for making turns in the woods, but this is really the combination of the best of Nordic and the best of Telemark techniques. IMO, the fastest way to get those is to focus on each separately. Do Nordic touring in the woods to start and learn to make parallel and tele turns on lifts with bigger gear. Much faster approach.

Let me say this another way... Don't fall into the trap that many of us did of trying to get good at tele by just marginally increasing your gear in small increments. IMO, that middle zone occupied by the 2 buckle plastic boot is best conquered from 2 directions at once.

 

[MikeK]

Thanks for the detailed post.

Just a bit of background from my side. I am a fairly proficient alpine skier. I can ski pretty much anything at a resort. Moguls are not my strongpoint though.

I've never tried tele gear. I was hoping to try to learn on lighter gear and practice at a resort but it sounds like that isn't a good idea.

As far as my touring gear, I can comfortably ski anything at a Nordic Center - in fact I used to Nordic ski quite often and I actually reverted backwards from wax skis to waxless BC skis - I find the BC skis much easier to ski on than what I was used to. On ungroomed turf or in a rut my snowplow isn't as effective. Depends on how stiff the snow is. My current boots don't have a cuff (Alpina Alaska 75mm) but they are quite high. They are soft like a hiking boot though and very comfy for touring - heck I even walk around in them and drive home in them. But anyway they really don't have the power to turn in anything heavy or hard.

I'd like to do some more ambitious tours like Marcy (in the ADKs) but I don't know that I'd try that on my current gear. I don't know that I have the right skill to be able to do that either, even with stiffer boots and shapely skis... I'm sure I could on AT gear but I have no interest in trudging along on the flats.

I selected my current skis based on what you call striding stability. I tried a number of compacts available on the market but found I like the old school tele better. Both my wife and I have these class of skis (she has e99s, I have glittertinds) and we mainly rely on snowplows to keep us out of the trees. Our main focus is stability and kick and glide. We chose the 3 pin for stability and control as well. We both tried a number of skis with NNN and neither of us liked them for rough, rutted up trails. On a smooth track they are fine. We also both felt we had more snowplow control with the 3 pin.

As far as boots we both started off using leather boots. Mine were Asolo Snowpines, hers were a Merrill of similar height and stiffness. They were fine touring boots except they gave me blisters. I took a chance on the Alaskas and really like them so she got a pair as well. So far we are happy using these for touring.

In an ideal world I would have taken your advice and sorted out my boots before my skis but comfort was an issue (I tried as many boots as I could). What we settled on is a little softer than I would have liked but it seems like a good match for our skis. It does force us more into the 'touring speed' category. In a track, and in the right snow I feel our skis are pretty darn fast.

 

[dug]

Many people make parallel turns on freeheel gear. Most of the freeheel skiers I see around on heavier tele gear (including myself) are probably making as many parallel turns as tele turns.

This is pretty much how I operate. I use my pseudo-tele gear when skiing at a resort with my daughter. She's now learning to snowboard, so it gives me a chance to practice turns while she learns to ride. And, I need all the practice I can get. When I get out on my own in the lifts, I'm doing a little "parallel", a little tele, a little "trying to catch a chicken". I only have T3s, some very good BD bindings mounted some downhill Salomon skis that were given to me by a rep who is a friend. It's not graceful, but it works.

My goal is to be a pure, elegant tele skier. But, it's mostly a move down to keep myself on trail and out of the woods if I am on a hiking trail. My T3s work because I'm in a cross-country mode as much as a downhill mode, and trying to kill two needs with one boot.

 

[DougPaul]

Just a bit of background from my side. I am a fairly proficient alpine skier. I can ski pretty much anything at a resort. Moguls are not my strongpoint though.

I've never tried tele gear. I was hoping to try to learn on lighter gear and practice at a resort but it sounds like that isn't a good idea.

You should be able to pull off parallel turns on Tele gear* pretty quickly--the primary difference is that you cannot press the tips of your skis into the snow to facilitate turning. Just go over to the bunny slope and try some snowplows, stem christies, and then parallels keeping your weight over your feet and you should be ready to go in short order. FWIW, I learned much of my parallel turn technique from a book on downhill skiing by Lito Tejada-Flores...

The Tele turn is much harder to learn... There are a number of subtleties that can take a while to learn. I suggest that you take a lesson or two to get going and to avoid developing bad habits that can become hard to break later on.

* A number of skis are sold for both Tele and AT (lockable heel for downhill)--the only difference is the binding (and boot). Many downhill skis (particularly if they have soft tails) can also be adapted to Tele use. So the skis should be quite similar.

A good book for both techniques is "Free-Heel Skiing: Telemark and Parallel Techniques" by Paul Parker.

I don't do moguls either... (I also don't bounce as well as I used to. )

Doug

 

[MikeK]

This is encouraging...

Here is my thought, but again I may be putting the ski before the boot.

I'd like a set of fatter skis for a couple reasons, and I was thinking the Fischer S-bound 98 or the Madshus Epoch might be the direction. There are also some used skis that I'd consider if I saw them in the right size and at the right price.

- I figured with these fatter boards I might be a little better off when blazing trail with the missus. I'd break, she follows. I'd use my soft boots. This of course would be easy terrain.

- I'd take them to a resort and practice my technique. Once I got better it might be fun to take them in some glades at Gore. I'm not really much interested in lift served skiing except for practice or low snow conditions. This of course I'd want a stiffer boot. I'm sure I could rent some T2s or T3s but I'm wondering if the bindings would be lacking power (thinking a hardwire actually over the cable - still locks away for touring). Tele lessons would be a given.

- I'd use them for mountain tours. A trip like Marcy where it's about 10 miles of touring I'd hate to do in AT gear. Probably be more fun on the way down but if I could really force snowplows or Christie turns I'd feel more confident i.e. I can snowplow or Christie a lot better with a plastic alpine boot than I can a xc boot. Obviously a tour like that needs skins for part of it. For that maybe I could get away with a hybrid cuff/leather boot, but maybe a full plastic might be a better option?

Bottom line I'd like to get as much skiing as possible with as few sets of skis. What I have now tours AWESOME. I couldn't be happier. It's comfy and I can cover a lot ground with minimal energy.

So I'm thinking my next set should be more downhill geared... no? I have no intentions of skiing slides or steep stuff. Low angle glades, mountain tours... stuff like that.

 

[dave.m]

I'd like to buy some plastic boots and sidecut skis. For bindings I'm thinking 3 pin cables. I'm kind of wondering what to expect. I've been guessing I'd be able to stem Christie a setup like that fairly easily unless the snow was deep and/or heavy, in which case I might need a telemark?

Not being a telemark skier I'm having a bit of an issue thinking I'll be able to really master the telemark turn, especially on light gear. I had considered AT gear to solve this problem but I really don't want to ski steep stuff and I like the feel of a 75mm for kicking and gliding... skiing flats with AT bindings looks more like walking to me.

So Mike, the extra background really, really helps.

We are now very firmly in the beer/ale discussion or the matching wine to food discussion. What will work best for you will really depend on the kind of experience you are seeking.

Here is a very grainy and teeny bit outdated shot of my skis and boots. The boots (in this picture) are, left to right: Snowfields (similar to yours), Extremes (buried in insulated gaitors and similar to your Alaskas), Liberos (similar to a T4) and some ancient T1s.


XCD Quiver by Pinnah, on Flickr

True to my moniker, all by bindings are pins. No cables. Lift served rigs (TUA Excaliburs and skinnier Cirques) have release plates, which I consider a must-have for tall plastic boots. But still, no cables.

Now... *MY GOAL*, which is my goal and might not be your goal, is to be able to make telemark turns on lighter gear, like on my Extremes and skinnier skis. This is why I run plain pins and (by today's standards) straight and skinny lift served skis. It helps keep my technique close to what I'll end up using on my lighter gear, particularly during the turn initiation (more stepped) and particularly in junky snow (less fore/aft control like you get with cables). Like Doug mentioned, parallel free heel is a lot of fun and definitely different than locked heel. It's more tentative, surfy and nuanced feeling. It's not the slice and dice of full alpine. Nice mellow porter vs hoppy American IPA, if you get my drift.

I should emphasize that my goal when riding lifts is way, way, way out of the norm. Most folks who telemark treat the lift served tele turn as it's own animal, essentially looking to get the same precision out of a tele turn as you can out of a full bore alpine p-turn. If that sounds more like your goal, I would suggest going straight for full bore tele gear. Another variant would be to look at NTN boots that are Dynafit AT binding compatible. That would give you a single pair of boots that you could ski either free heel with NTN bindings or locked heel with Dynafit style AT bindings. If this is sounding like your cup of tea, you might want to point your browser at earnyourturns.com and telemarkeast.com for good sources of information.

A bit on the difference between my Extremes and my Liberos....

I find that both boots make free heel p-turns about the same. Like Doug said, there's no shin pressure, it's all about the ankle and staying centered. The boots have *enough* lateral support in the heel to edge the ski and the edgeing transfers to the ski so long as the heel is on the ski deck and the width of the ski isn't too much. On hard snow and with my 90/70/80 skis, the Liberos definitely win out in p-turn mode but that's not dramatic.

In tele mode, there is a massive difference. The threshold for us former alpine skiers is to actually edge with and control that rear skis (the monomark is a great drill) and it is here, with the rear ski the difference in the boots is huge. IMO, leather toed boots just don't have enough torsional stiffness to edge the rear ski effectively. I can sort of ski my Extremes in tele mode with my 80/60/70 skis but that's about it. I can definitely handle my 70/50/55 type skis with leathers. In contrast, my Liberos will edge the rear ski of any of my tele skis just as well as my taller T1s. They have a ton of torsional stiffniess in the toe. I can't ski them all day at a ski area due to their low height, but I can make tele turns on them and they tour much better than my taller T1s.

In striding mode, the leathers win hands down. This is why I suggest boots like the Alaska for Nodic style touring. Touring in cable bindings or in plastic boots is like touring with shackles on. The only times I would choose plastic boots for touring is in extreme cold or really wet spring conditions. They are warmer and drier but a long shot.

It's unfair to ask you what you want becuase you've not really "tried" tele yet. For a lot of us, once you taste a tele turn in soft snow, you get really hooked bad. But, it's a hard thing to recommend.

Question... where do you envision yourself practicing your tele turn? If local park lands, then, ok, a light plastic boot would make sense. But if at at a ski area, then I would suggest a taller 3 buckle boot. I would also recommend a soft flexing boot unless you know you're going to be a hard charger (doesn't sound like it).

 

[dave.m]

Mike,

Our post passed on teh wire...

Trips like Marcy are increasingly being done on light AT gear.

I really can't recommend the 3pin/cable anymore (unless you want release - and I do).

For Nordic touring, the cable adds nothing. Plain pins are fine.

For the more rugged up and down tours, free pivot has taken over or is in the process. You *could* go tele free pivot or very light AT free pivot.

Regarding shaped skis, I *hate* them for touring as they wander this way and that when striding. Very tiring on a long day. I find straighter skis track better.

IMO, the S-bound 98 is better matched to the T4 type boot due to the width.

I would go with T4/plain pins, T4/Switchback (free pivot) or light Dynafitt type AT boot with Dynafits for that ski.

T4s will survive at ski areas, just expect to be gassed by lunch (or do more dry land balance work).

 

[MikeK]

It's going to take me a a while to digest all that.

I do have one comment off the cuff so to speak, and that is the sidecut on my current skis. They are 68-55-62 I believe. I know that isn't much, and they look pretty straight but I actually found I liked this better than the compacts out there (Rossi BC65/70, Fischer Outback 68, etc) which are straighter. Might be the stiffness and weight too.

I found the compacts harder to control if I wasn't locked into a hard track. I'm guessing there is a sweet spot for side cut and touring? Obviously Nordic races are using straight skis... but they are locked into a hard track or skating.

Another thing I thought of. I don't really like modern alpine skis and boots. The boots feel too soft for me and the skis feel heavy and slow. I grew up skiing on 'straight' alpine skis (wasn't that long ago)... took a hiatus (heavily shaped skis just started becoming popular at that time) for a while and then came back to alpine. Skis and boots changed a lot. I got used to them, but I never had fun like I did in the old days.

 

[dave.m]

Mike, sorry to overload. I ramble on sometimes...

I too don't like the way compact track while striding. Excessive side cut, like the now gone Fischer Rebounds are similar but for a different reason.

If you don't like shaped skis for Alpine, there's no reason to think you'll like them for Telemark. The basics to leverage them are the same. Tip the ski, weight on both feet, let the ski do the work. Different than the unweight, weight style of straighter skis. This is one reason why I still ski straight skis lift served. They're out there if you hunt. Very soft Alpine skis (womens skis, beginners skis) make decent Tele skis. For T4s, I would keep tips under 100mm and waist at or under 70mm.

 

[MikeK]

Mike,

Our post passed on teh wire...

Trips like Marcy are increasingly being done on light AT gear.

I really can't recommend the 3pin/cable anymore (unless you want release - and I do).

For Nordic touring, the cable adds nothing. Plain pins are fine.

For the more rugged up and down tours, free pivot has taken over or is in the process. You *could* go tele free pivot or very light AT free pivot.

Regarding shaped skis, I *hate* them for touring as they wander this way and that when striding. Very tiring on a long day. I find straighter skis track better.

IMO, the S-bound 98 is better matched to the T4 type boot due to the width.

I would go with T4/plain pins, T4/Switchback (free pivot) or light Dynafitt type AT boot with Dynafits for that ski.

T4s will survive at ski areas, just expect to be gassed by lunch (or do more dry land balance work).

I had a chance to think about this a bit... and maybe some of my response is redundant, but my thoughts are changing, hopefully in a good direction.

First off, I get exactly what you mean about the rear ski in tele - I took a lesson and was able to make it happen but my rear ski always felt dead. The few times I've tried practicing a tele turn I was using the Glittertinds and both sets of my soft boots. I can never get the rear ski to turn right and if I do it's more wedge than a parallel. I'm sure it's mostly technique but I FEEL like my boot isn't stiff enough and it's rolling rather than the ski edging. The other issue is fore/aft balance. Not making a turn properly adds speed and then extra speed is harder to control... it's a downward spiral that leads to falling. Anyway I can see where a tall boot would be advantageous to help fore/aft - but to me that seems to be a secondary issue due to not controlling speed with a proper turn in the first place. Everytime I fall freeheel it is because I losing my fore/aft balance.

I guess I'm wondering what might be a better setup for mountain tours, glades, etc... I think I'd be practicing turns as much on a sledding hill as much as I'd be at a ski center.

A release plate was not in my thoughts but maybe it should be?

I'd say I could even forgo the ski center... I thought some place like Gore when they have good snow might be fun on freeheel gear.

Maybe the 98 or the Epoch is too wide and shapely for what I want to do.

Not being a tele expert, I'm not sure what function the cable provides in the downhill aspect. I was assuming that would be in my pocket for touring or clamped to the heel riser.

I will say that I'm kind of leery about AT because of a fixed boot. Fixed (flat foot) boots hurt my feet. My foot hates to be flat for a long period of time. Alpine is torture at times... at least it's quick and you're off them on the lift. I'm not even sure my foot will tolerate a T4 type boot for long periods of time.

 

[MikeK]

Mike, sorry to overload. I ramble on sometimes...

I too don't like the way compact track while striding. Excessive side cut, like the now gone Fischer Rebounds are similar but for a different reason.

If you don't like shaped skis for Alpine, there's no reason to think you'll like them for Telemark. The basics to leverage them are the same. Tip the ski, weight on both feet, let the ski do the work. Different than the unweight, weight style of straighter skis. This is one reason why I still ski straight skis lift served. They're out there if you hunt. Very soft Alpine skis (womens skis, beginners skis) make decent Tele skis. For T4s, I would keep tips under 100mm and waist at or under 70mm.

Yes it seems like we like to ski the similar downhill technique. I didn't know but I found out taking some advanced lessons that pressure edging is the stem Christie I was talking about. True parallel is carving like modern shape skis like. I had no idea. They can look almost the same to an observer. I found that modern skis you have to kind of do both. Carve to turn and pressure edge to control speed.

Anyway, I prefer the old technique. I'm better at it.

And it's OK - I had to read it about 5 times, but I think I got most of it

 

[MikeK]

Sorry to triple post in a row here but thinking out loud...

Possibly a ski like the current Eon (old Karhu XCD GT) would suit me better with a heavy boot and 3 pin of course. All the current marketing seems to suggest this is a 'light' touring ski and it would be overkill to ski it with an Excursion class boot.

Seems to me, if I am reading the previous information correctly, it might be an easier ski to tele on with a stiffer boot and I'd probably prefer how it parallel turns vs. something like the Epoch or the S Bound 98.

I know a lot of people put NNN bindings on these skis and claim they tour well, so slapping my Alaskas on them should be nice for breaking trail...

Fischer has a comparable ski, the S Bound 78. I have no idea what the actual camber or stiffness is of the Fischer though. I believe the Eon is still camber and a half and relatively soft.

Initially, the Eon is the ski I thought of buying. Not being able to ski in groomed tracks was a killer though - I like that option. We have some good, free places to ski, relatively nearby that have groomed tracks and really fun trails.

Anyway, with a ski like that the question for me becomes the length. Can I turn a 195? For my weight it is suggested I ski a 195 in any of the skis I've brought up, but I had assumed with a wider ski I could get away with a 185...

BTW I'm only quoting current production models as options because I've had relatively poor luck seeing anything available that was a model, a size or a price that I liked.

 

[DougPaul]

First off, I get exactly what you mean about the rear ski in tele - I took a lesson and was able to make it happen but my rear ski always felt dead. The few times I've tried practicing a tele turn I was using the Glittertinds and both sets of my soft boots. I can never get the rear ski to turn right and if I do it's more wedge than a parallel. I'm sure it's mostly technique but I FEEL like my boot isn't stiff enough and it's rolling rather than the ski edging. The other issue is fore/aft balance. Not making a turn properly adds speed and then extra speed is harder to control... it's a downward spiral that leads to falling. Anyway I can see where a tall boot would be advantageous to help fore/aft - but to me that seems to be a secondary issue due to not controlling speed with a proper turn in the first place. Everytime I fall freeheel it is because I losing my fore/aft balance.

I had to unlearn some (self-taught) bad habits to control the back ski properly... Now I mentally lower myself directly onto the back ski with the back leg, keeping my perceived CG over the rear ski. (The front leg and ski pretty much automatically do the right thing and pick up an appropriate amount of weight.) This gives me a reasonable weight distribution and allows me to turn on the edge of both skis. You need a bit of speed so you can set the edge with banking and angulation.

I guess I'm wondering what might be a better setup for mountain tours, glades, etc... I think I'd be practicing turns as much on a sledding hill as much as I'd be at a ski center.

A release plate was not in my thoughts but maybe it should be?

See the Telemark injury study: http://faculty.washington.edu/mtuggy/telepag1.htm. Releasable Tele bindings make a small reduction in the injury rate. Plastic boots make a much bigger reduction. Catching the wrong edge of the back ski can result in injury: http://faculty.washington.edu/mtuggy/kneeinfo.htm. See the included video to see what a good Tele turn should look like: http://faculty.washington.edu/mtuggy/video5.mpg.

I'd say I could even forgo the ski center... I thought some place like Gore when they have good snow might be fun on freeheel gear.

Maybe the 98 or the Epoch is too wide and shapely for what I want to do.

Many (most?) skis that fit in tracks (tracks are 70mm wide) don't turn particularly well. I deal with this by having several sets of skis ranging from kick and glide oriented BC (65/54/60) camber and a half* (which fit) to single camber* light Tele (90/67/8) Tele to single camber* heavy Tele (119/78/105) and (try to) choose the most appropriate pair for the situation. (All have metal edges and are mounted with 75mm pin or cable bindings.)

* There has been very little discussion of camber--it has a huge effect on the turning performance of a ski.

BTW, all of the above skis can be waxed or skinned and used in a kick and glide mode.

Not being a tele expert, I'm not sure what function the cable provides in the downhill aspect. I was assuming that would be in my pocket for touring or clamped to the heel riser.

The cable bindings give better ski control, but you need a beefy enough boot to take advantage of it. My BC and light Tele skis have 3-pin bindings (mostly Rottefella Super Tele) and my heavy Tele skis have cable Tele bindings. All of my boots (Snowfield II (leather), T3 (light plastic), T2 (heavier plastic)) are 75-mm system and I can choose boots to match the skis and expected conditions.

I will say that I'm kind of leery about AT because of a fixed boot. Fixed (flat foot) boots hurt my feet. My foot hates to be flat for a long period of time. Alpine is torture at times... at least it's quick and you're off them on the lift. I'm not even sure my foot will tolerate a T4 type boot for long periods of time.

Both Tele gear and BC gear can be used for kick-and-glide which should flex your feet a bit... (Have you considered footbeds? I use green superfeet in my Snowfields. Some of the better boots also have heat-moldable liners.)

Doug