All My Layers Are Soaked - Now What?

[sierra]

He doesn't like wool because of the weight and the fact that it partially absorbs water, which also adds weight and makes it dry slower. Relative to his perspective and climbing style I totally get that. Probably not the factor for us here in the Whites that it is for someone like him measuring every precious ounce. I pretty regularly wear synthetic jackets over my hard shell and I agree with Twight that it works well. I think it has a similar effect to what the DriClime/poly base layers do. The temp difference drives the moisture to the outside of the shell and stays liquid so the hardshell doesn't freeze and the insulation doesn't get very wet because it is exposed to the breeze/lower outside temperatures. I haven't really been out in truly cold weather so far this year though so I haven't had a chance to see how it performs in really cold conditions. I'm expecting the increased temperature gradient to make it work even better but maybe the condensation will ice too. Won't know until I try it. Somewhere around -20 deg F (in absolute or wind chill equivalent terms) is my "stay home" temperature so if it works in these conditions too I'd say I'm 100% sold on the concept.

I got an Arc'teryx Nuclei jacket this fall on a 40% off clearance sale that I wear regularly over my hard shell and it works out awesome (the jacket in general is pretty awesome no matter how I use it). It is made with their CoreLoft insulation (whatever the hell that is - it is synthetic), only weighs 10 ounces (it has a hood and two chest pockets) and is impossibly warm and breathable even when it is wet. I can wear just that jacket and a cotton t-shirt on a breezy day in the 20's and sweat taking a nice easy walk in it, which is a hell of an accomplishment for someone who gets as cold as I do. I've been able to use this garment in a variety of configurations to stay warm without wearing so many layers. (It does have a very delicate shell material so I try not to wear it as the outermost layer when I'm in the trees. For that reason I'm still messing with soft shell combinations instead of using it exclusively, which I suspect would be more than enough).

P.S. The synthetic layers do indeed get funky after a long day in the system I described. I only have one thin merino wool base layer which I haven't tried yet. And yes I was using a hard shell originally. When I first started hiking I did get a soft shell and the breathability was horrible. Worse than my hardshell. So I went to the hard shell system. Down the road as I read and learned more about the gear I realized my original softshell was extremely heavy and windstopper as well. I have since acquired several soft shells of various breathability ranges that I now use much more often. Hard shell generally only comes out if it is wet, trees have a lot of snow on them or it is super cold/breezy.

There are 1000's of combination's in regards to layering, but I confess. I've never heard of using a shell "under" fleece layers. I would say safely, that I use my shell less then 30 percent of the time I'm hiking, but when I use it, I need it. I tend to us my shell more to block wind, then to repel moisture in the winter. My system works like this on most days. Short sleeve tee, mid-layer good to 20 degree's. When needed, I add my shell. Above treeline, Ill add my puff jacket or my shell. If it's really windy and cold aka high wind chill value, Ill dump my puff and my shell and put on my parka, which is wind resistant and waterproof. But, hey whatever works for you, is the right way.

 

[Mike P.]

P.S. The synthetic layers do indeed get funky after a long day in the system I described. I only have one thin merino wool base layer which I haven't tried yet. And yes I was using a hard shell originally. When I first started hiking I did get a soft shell and the breathability was horrible. Worse than my hardshell. So I went to the hard shell system. Down the road as I read and learned more about the gear I realized my original softshell was extremely heavy and windstopper as well. I have since acquired several soft shells of various breathability ranges that I now use much more often. Hard shell generally only comes out if it is wet, trees have a lot of snow on them or it is super cold/breezy.

It's not nicknamed poly-pew for nothing. (and why you need a cotton change of clothes for the ride back home in CT..., preferably a T-shirt, jeans and sweatshirt with fabric softener)

 

[DougPaul]

I pretty regularly wear synthetic jackets over my hard shell and I agree with Twight that it works well. I think it has a similar effect to what the DriClime/poly base layers do. The temp difference drives the moisture to the outside of the shell and stays liquid so the hardshell doesn't freeze and the insulation doesn't get very wet because it is exposed to the breeze/lower outside temperatures.

The moisture permeability of some (most?) waterproof-breathable fabrics used in hardshells is temperature dependent*. Putting insulation over it would keep it warmer and increase its moisture permeability compared to the permeability if worn on the outside.
* There is data available at several sites on the web. GoreTex (at least at the time of the tests) had reduced permeability at low temps while Event retained its permeability at low temps. Both were good when warm.

As you noted, there is a temperature gradient through your insulation with body temp on the inside (warm) and ambient on the outside (cold). Your skin is putting out moisture at some rate** and, of course if that rate is greater than the transport rate*** of any of the layers, then moisture must accumulate at the surface of or within the layer as liquid water or ice depending on the temp.
** This rate depends, in part, on the humidity right next to the skin. A moisture barrier against the skin will raise the skin humidity to ~100% which supposedly reduces sweating as well as stopping the moisture before it reaches one's insulating layers.
*** The transport rate is the product of the humidity difference across the layer times the permeability of the layer.

Also as this moisture diffuses through the insulation the temperature drops reducing the amount of moisture that the diffusing air can hold (thus increasing the relative humidity) until the relative humidity reaches 100% at which point moisture will condense in an insulation layer as liquid or ice depending on the temp.

(I know this sounds like a physics lecture, but hopefully some will find it to be useful.) While one can hike without understanding the physics of moisture transport through clothing, it may help some understand why observed moisture accumulates and how to prevent it in the future.


Executive summary :
A hazard of semi-tropical beasts with sweat glands on their skin (ie us) going out in the cold is, of course, wet or frozen insulation... or maybe

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

He doesn't like wool because of the weight and the fact that it partially absorbs water, which also adds weight and makes it dry slower.

I didn't like wool either until I tried it...

Wool is a very interesting fiber--it consists of a hydrophobic sheath over a hydrophilic core which slows both wetting and drying. The hydrophic sheath helps it retain its porosity (between fibers) when wet so it retains a substantial portion of its insulation (more than any other fabric). (If you hand wash wool, you know that it is slow to soak up moisture.) By retaining its porosity, it also retains its cushioning--the combination is why it is the best fabric for hiking socks.

In contrast, while water does not penetrate polyester fibers, it does wet the surface and stay within the fabric. In contrast to wool, polyester fabrics will wet very quickly. (Some towels are made of polyester for just this reason.)

We used to have beginning white water boaters were rain gear over wool until they got wet or dry suits.

I have used both wool and polyester for both base and insulating layers (with and without outer shells). IMO, wool is probably better in wet conditions and polyester is probably better in dryer conditions.

FWIW, wool baselayers are very stink resistant...

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

There are 1000's of combination's in regards to layering, but I confess. I've never heard of using a shell "under" fleece layers.

I suspect that you are aware of vapor barriers--I simply view it as a partial vapor barrier. A total vapor barrier anywhere but next to one's skin would result in moisture accumulation in the inner layers. (A partial may or may not.)

I read Twight's book a long time ago and recall his use of a polyester jacket over his shell at belays but not elsewhere. When one is standing on a small belay ledge with one's climbing harness and gear slings on it is nearly impossible to change one's clothing except to put something on over everything. IIRC, the extra jacket came off before leaving the belay ledge.

For those who do not (technical) climb, you get hot and sweat while climbing and then stand around at the belay and get cold. Repeat until you reach to top. Changing one's insulation between the start and finish is, at best, difficult (with the above exception). Thermal control is much easier while hiking...

Doug

 

[Trail Boss]

... we always stress the importance of staying dry to avoid hypothermia ... even the best of us can get soaked in the right conditions. So at that critical junction where you and your gear are soaked, you know you are soaked but you haven't been impaired yet what should the plan be?

First, I didn't read other replies so forgive any redundancies.

The last time I got "soaked" was decades ago. I got so cold that I had trouble buttoning the wool shirt I put on. In a nutshell, I've never let that happen again. It's all about prevention and I won't bore you with the details of "wear the least amount of clothing you can while exerting" because you know all that.

Do you hike with 3 extra fleeces on wet days?

I don't wear fleece because it's too much insulation for me, even in winter. I wear the least I can and reserve the spares in my pack for emergency use. I've rarely ever had to reach for a spare and I don't swap out damp baselayers for dry ones (a long way of saying I wear damp clothing all day).
In sub-zero weather, I can get by with a lightweight zip-neck baselayer and a Rab VR jacket (like Marmot Driclime). As long as I'm moving, I'm OK.
Example: sub-zero weather in the Adirondacks (-40 F windchill):


Stay frosty.

What about shoes ...?

Plastic bags. Foot-sized plastic bags are in my pack year round.
I've used them as VB socks to protect my dry boots from my sweaty feet. I've also used them to protect my dry feet from wet footwear.
Example: After hiking Marshall, I broke through the ice on the Opalescent and slid in up to my knees. One boot got wet. I put on a plastic bag over the wet sock and put the boot back on. That was fine for a few miles but then it got too chilly. I stopped and replaced the wet sock with a dry one (and another dry plastic bag) and continued on to Redfield.

Socks?

One extra pair of synthetic socks (Drymax).

... three sets of gloves?

My hands are cold-sensitive so I typically wear fleece mitts for insulation and I'll bring one-two extra pairs. I'll wear G-tex mitten shells if its windy or wet.
I wear gloves only as liners. Lately I've used dollar-store gardening gloves (polyester gloves partially coated with a rubbery material).
I tried wearing large nitrile gloves to serve as vapor barriers but found them to be too snug.
I now use cheapo plastic gloves designed for food-service as vapour barriers. They're oversized and not constrictive but you do have to wear them inside another lightweight glove (too awkward to wear alone within a mitt).

Do you really carry 5 ways to make fire?

Just matches and I hope to never have to use them in an emergency because it means I've effed up big time.

What if you fell in a river or wet snow spruce trap and everything, including the back ups, got soaked?

I don't have a contingency plan for falling into a lake. I generally try to avoid them unless it's deep winter. If you can get out of the lake (and there's no guarantee of that) you've got to put on anything in your pack that's still dry. Your next move depends on whether it makes more sense to walk out or make a fire. If nothing is dry or the pack is at the bottom of the lake, well, let's hope you're not alone and your buddy can pitch in ... because the Laws of Thermodynamics are not in your favor.

...we find our ourselves wet in poor weather with no dry gear.

"No dry gear." Hmmm. A lot of the clothing currently available will provide some degree of insulation even when wet (OK, maybe not dripping wet). If I were to put on everything in my pack I'd be wearing three baselayers, a VR jacket, a Primaloft jacket and an eVent hardshell. Plastic bags on my feet with another pair of socks. Two hats plus the hoods of three jackets. VB gloves, mitts, and shells. I'm getting overheated just writing about all that stuff! Plus it all fits into my 24 liter pack. FWIW, the only discomfort will be my wet softshell pants and undershorts. Grin and bear the shrinkage.


BTW, my worst fear is losing dexterity. I've had my cold-sensitive hands become so painfully cold it became difficult to open my pack to retrieve extra mitts. Seriously, lose the use of your hands and you're circling the drain.

 

[jfb]

I only have one thin merino wool base layer which I haven't tried yet.

I suggest you try your synthetic base layer, then the merino shirt, then the DriClime wind shirt. That approximates what I wear.

 

[DayTrip]

There are 1000's of combination's in regards to layering, but I confess. I've never heard of using a shell "under" fleece layers.

Not under fleece. With the hardshell in particular I was talking about a synthetic jacket or puffy worn over the shell. Just the one layer. Not sandwiched under many layers. The windshirt is what I wear with a poly layer as a "base layer".

 

[DayTrip]

I don't wear fleece because it's too much insulation for me, even in winter. I wear the least I can and reserve the spares in my pack for emergency use. I've rarely ever had to reach for a spare and I don't swap out damp baselayers for dry ones (a long way of saying I wear damp clothing all day).
In sub-zero weather, I can get by with a lightweight zip-neck baselayer and a Rab VR jacket (like Marmot Driclime). As long as I'm moving, I'm OK.
Example: sub-zero weather in the Adirondacks (-40 F windchill):

We're definitely different there. If I was out in -40 deg F in what you wear I'd be a block of ice ready for SAR retrieval.

 

[DayTrip]

I suggest you try your synthetic base layer, then the merino shirt, then the DriClime wind shirt. That approximates what I wear.

Maybe I'll give that a try tomorrow. Have a few layering changes I wanted to experiment with tomorrow.

 

[sierra]

I suspect that you are aware of vapor barriers--I simply view it as a partial vapor barrier. A total vapor barrier anywhere but next to one's skin would result in moisture accumulation in the inner layers. (A partial may or may not.)

I read Twight's book a long time ago and recall his use of a polyester jacket over his shell at belays but not elsewhere. When one is standing on a small belay ledge with one's climbing harness and gear slings on it is nearly impossible to change one's clothing except to put something on over everything. IIRC, the extra jacket came off before leaving the belay ledge.

For those who do not (technical) climb, you get hot and sweat while climbing and then stand around at the belay and get cold. Repeat until you reach to top. Changing one's insulation between the start and finish is, at best, difficult (with the above exception). Thermal control is much easier while hiking...

Doug

I was a technical climbed and have read twights stuff. For the application you describe, I totally see just adding a layer over everything for time and simplicity's sake.

 

[Mike P.]

Maybe I'll give that a try tomorrow. Have a few layering changes I wanted to experiment with tomorrow.

Not sure on your neighborhood but you can always try your gear out locally at night, especially on a few of those windy nights we've had. If it doesn't work here, you'll need to make adjustments.

 

[iAmKrzys]

I have been concerned about staying warm when wet from sweating, so last year I experimented with SmartWool but despite extra processing that it gets it still felt pretty itchy to me (I guess I can only tolerate wool socks but nothing else), so this didn't work out for me. Upon a recommendation from a friend I tried Uniqlo HeatTech Extra Warm long sleeve base layer and I really like it to the point that I got 4 of these long sleeve shirts and I stopped using anything else. First of all, it is really smooth to touch, so it does not feel itchy to me like SmartWool did. Second, it seems pretty warm and it dries up a lot faster than my previous base layer of choice (Terramar Helix.) For example, on one cold and breezy day I hiked in Harriman and I sweated up on the way to Bear Mountain. I spent something like 20-30 minutes at the top and I was already dry on the way down (I guess the windy conditions probably helped here too.) Finally, it does not smell bad like some other synthetic base layers after a few days of wearing (I did test it on a multi-day trip to Vermont recently.) Weight-wise it is about the same as SmartWool but also much cheaper.

For the record, I did not like Uniqlo bottoms nearly as much as the tops.

I did not hike in really cold weather lately, but while in Vermont I started one hike in the low 20s and I was wearing the above base layer combined with Patagonia Micro D fleece for mid-layer and Houdini jacket for wind breaker which was warm enough for me while I was moving. I had more layers in my pack but did not get to use them. However, I did use a set of chemical hand warmers once my gloves got wet.

 

[jfb]

I can wear just that jacket and a cotton t-shirt on a breezy day in the 20's and sweat taking a nice easy walk in it,

That's not my definition of an "action suit." But it would be nice to have if you fall in a lake.

 

[Brambor]

wow. 4 pages. Looks like I missed a good thread when I was gone over the long weekend. I'll just add what extra clothing I usually carry in the pack:

top and bottom midweight wool layer
1 pair of socks
synthetic insulated vest or synthetic insulated jacket
extra hat
balaclava
extra pair of wool gloves
one pair of goretex mittens with their removable insulating mitten (Mt.Baker from OR)

If I somehow had everything on and fell into the water then I would just keep it on and keep moving and utilize my body heat to dry out the layers as much as possible. If I felt like it's not working I'd start a fire. I carry matches and a piece of firestarter brick.

I would not change my socks if my boots were completely wet - probably obvious - because that would just soak my dry socks.

 

[DayTrip]

Not sure on your neighborhood but you can always try your gear out locally at night, especially on a few of those windy nights we've had. If it doesn't work here, you'll need to make adjustments.

I do that all the time actually. I have a roughly 2.5 mile loop I take around my house to try new stuff I've bought, try layer combos, etc where I can check the exact temp, climb uphill or downhill, etc and see how stuff performs. I'll usually take that knowledge to the trails once I've done the experimenting in a safe place.

 

[DayTrip]

Maybe I'll give that a try tomorrow. Have a few layering changes I wanted to experiment with tomorrow.

I tried a merino wool layer Sunday and it was still soaked back at the car. The poly layer and inside of DriClime were nearly completely dry. Looks like I'll stay with the thin poly layers. Seems to work best.

 

[jfb]

I tried a merino wool layer Sunday and it was still soaked back at the car. The poly layer and inside of DriClime were nearly completely dry. Looks like I'll stay with the thin poly layers. Seems to work best.

You need to figure out why the merino shirt did not dry. You must have worn something over the wind shirt that blocked evaporation. Kind of like putting wet laundry in a plastic bag overnight and expecting it to be dry in the morning.

 

[DayTrip]

I'm assuming it is something about the merino wool itself. The layers under and over it were fine, including the midweight fleece on the outside of the wind shirt. Merino wool must need more air to dry properly. I didn't get any colder than I did not wearing it but it was still wet.

 

[jfb]

I'm assuming it is something about the merino wool itself. The layers under and over it were fine, including the midweight fleece on the outside of the wind shirt. Merino wool must need more air to dry properly. I didn't get any colder than I did not wearing it but it was still wet.

No, the midweight fleece is what was blocking the moisture. Here's something you can try: Wet the merino layer in some water, then put it on with the wind shirt over it and wear it inside your house until it dries. You were obviously wearing the fleece over the wind shirt because there wasn't enough insulation under the wind shirt to keep you warm in the temps you were hiking in. If there's room, you could add another layer of wool under the wind shirt instead of wearing the fleece over it. Unfortunately, you may have to buy a larger wind shell to fit enough wool underneath.