Another way to determine turn around time (in the winter)

[Tom Rankin]

A few hikes ago, I was counting steps and marking every 100 steps in the snow (just for fun) with 1, 2, 3, 4, etc. but then I realized that this could be a useful way to figure out how long it would take to get back to the car. I estimated it would be about 10 minutes per 1,000 steps, eventually refined to 12 minutes, for breaks, photos, bathroom breaks, etc. (YMMV)

So in my case, if it was 2:00 PM, and I'd taken 10,000 steps, it would take 12*10 = 120 minutes, or 2 hours to get back to the car, getting me back by 4:00, well before any sunset time in the winter.

This is a much better estimate than 'turn around at noon', or 'time up = time down', both of which I have always thought were way too conservative.

I realize you can use a GPS to do this, but if you don't have one, (or it's too cold to use it), this is a good SWAG for estimating how long it will take to get back down.

And yes, I also realize the descent rate varies on the terrain, but if you do this for a few hikes, you can average out your own descent rate and use this as a SWAG.

HTH

 

[Nessmuk]

Tom, please define "step". Is it every left and right foot step, or is it counting every single left (or every right) foot step, not counting both, as the definition of a "pace".

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Does it matter? Just don't use one definition going up and the other coming down? Waaaay too error prone in my opinion.

Tim

 

[Nessmuk]

It matters only if you every wanted to calculate in terms of actual distance traveled.

 

[TEO]

If objective hazard such as wet-slide avalanches and rockfall are not present, and you don't have a dinner date, what is the point of a turnaround time or needing to be back at the trailhead before dark? Did not the advent of LED headlamps make the notion obsolete?

 

[Tom Rankin]

If objective hazard such as wet-slide avalanches and rockfall are not present, and you don't have a dinner date, what is the point of a turnaround time or needing to be back at the trailhead before dark? Did not the advent of LED headlamps make the notion obsolete?

I've never had a hard and fast turn around time. But there are good reasons for wanting to be out of the woods, some you mentioned, and others. Headlamps are great, but I still much prefer not to be bushwhacking in the dark.

Nessmuk and Tim, steps are whatever you want them to be, I don't care about the actual distance in this case, and yes I said it was a SWAG.

I also like the psychological boost of seeing the numbers get smaller and smaller!

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Steps are a proxy for time and a clock does a much better job counting time than I could ever do counting steps.

Steps used as a proxy for distance, when bushwhacking say, or going 200' off trail for a bio break, is a more realistic use case, IMO. For short distances I probably can keep an accurate count while minimizing the variations in the length of my steps.

Tim

 

[dug]

Our first backpacking trip, to 13 Falls, as kids was LLLOOONNNGGGG. We'd never done anything like that and were gassed walking out. Let's just say we learned a lot. I started counting steps from the first time I heard a car to when we got to the lot. 703.

I find myself counting steps often, more for a rest. "50 and stop; 100 and stop, etc." I can get a little RainMan at times.... Not sure I could keep a tally and use it for a turnaround time/distance though.




I look at a headlamp as a safety device to use if I need to, but don't plan to, and never plan to hike out in the dark so my turnaround times take the dark into account. Sure, it happens, but my intent is to get out before dark virtually every time.

 

[jfb]

So in my case, if it was 2:00 PM, and I'd taken 10,000 steps, it would take 12*10 = 120 minutes, or 2 hours to get back to the car, getting me back by 4:00, well before any sunset time in the winter.

In my case, each step is approximately 2 feet long. 10,000 steps would be approximately 4 miles. 4 miles in 2 hours with no adjustment for elevation changes is "book time." I find that I hike at a speed pretty close to book time (including adjustment for elevation) on ascents and without adjustment on descents.

If I had planned on summitting by a certain time and find myself behind schedule, I need to determine why. The reason then has to be considered when calculating a revised turn-around time.

 

[OldEric]

Isn't turn around time by definition a..uh..TIME? I suppose you could argue its a way to determine time to turn around

 

[skiguy]

I could see this working but personally I don’t hike the same speed going up or down all the time.

 

[DayTrip]

If objective hazard such as wet-slide avalanches and rockfall are not present, and you don't have a dinner date, what is the point of a turnaround time or needing to be back at the trailhead before dark? Did not the advent of LED headlamps make the notion obsolete?

That was my first thought too. I never understood the need for a hard target to just halt the whole trip and turn around. If you're properly prepared the only real concern is if you'd get too tired to finish and I've always relied on intuition for that. I've never calculated an estimate of that based on any kind of formula. That seems needlessly mechanical.

 

[hikerbrian]

When I first started winter hiking, I took some of the NH AMC chapter's weekend seminar trips out of Cardigan lodge, and for sure they emphasized, 'Set a turnaround time and stick to it.' There were stories told with great pride about being a quarter mile from the top (or maybe 100 yards...), but the watch struck 1:30 and it was time to turn around.

Figuring out that hiking at night can be really, strikingly lovely (in appropriate circumstances) - that has been probably the most liberating lesson I've learned in the past decade of hiking. Though I will admit some spots are more strikingly lovely than others...

 

[peakbagger]

I was breaking a new to winter hiking person once on Mt Isolation. We got on a bad line on the second bushwhack and got in steep deep snow about 1/4 from the col. We had set 2 PM as turn around time I had never been hiking with him in winter. We probably had 45 minutes more to go the summit given the nasty wall of brush that has to be broken to get to Davis Path. If I was with someone I knew we would have discussed it and probably headed to the summit but it was training trip to we stopped, took a break and headed back out to the car.

 

[Mike P.]

Are you counting steps or are you wearing a watch that is counting them? As others mentioned, my time varies due to many reasons, how have I been sleeping, am I wearing snowshoes, different terrain, (Ammo vs C-Path), how packed out is the trail, if well-traveled, is it icy?, temps, what am I wearing, what did I pack. Where am I and where did I start?

I try not to do evening hikes where I plan on coming down in the dark in winter. When I've started Monadnock or similar trips in summer around 7:00, I always wanted to be back to the trees by dark. If I am planning a hike where ending in the dark is likely, I'm looking at moving the start time so I may be starting in the dark (Alpine Style)

My preference is not to be on the challenging terrain in the dark. Easiest example of this would be a Presi-Traverse. Valley Way in the dark is fine, the Crawford Path below Pierce in the dark fine. (from Ike in Twilight would probably be okay).

Disclaimer - Most of us would be the choir too, we have an idea of what we are doing (we think), we aren't in a panic if it's getting dark and miles from the car or camp. If I'm giving advice to the inexperienced like Boy Scouts, I'm overly conservative. I don't know how they will react to being out in the dark. In a FB group, I don't have resumes of everyone in the group.

 

[DayTrip]

Figuring out that hiking at night can be really, strikingly lovely (in appropriate circumstances) .

Totally agree. As someone who hikes primarily for the views the thought of being in the woods "when you can't see anything" seemed ludicrous to me. But the draw of doing a sunset hike eventually got me in the woods at night. I was apprehensive at first wondering what it would be like. It was awesome. I've been hooked ever since. Sunrises, sunsets, stupid early starts hiking in the dark for hours. Love it. Above tree line is particularly amazing. Night hikes in the fog are amazing. I think of countless night time experiences that would have all been missed out on if I hiked by arbitrary rules. Woods. Above tree line. Good weather. Bad weather. All awesome.

In 2020, I went up Washington in the dark on a moonless night for a sunrise (long lingering bucket list item) and I specifically recall stopping on Gulfside Trail on that high, "paved" section just before it descends to the Clay Loop junction and just being blown away by the contrast of the view versus the daytime. I actually stopped, sat on a rock, turned my headlamp off and just sat there and enjoyed it for 5-6 minutes. Later approaching the summit I was in a dense fog with visibility of about 10-20' going cairn to cairn. Totally different and equally amazing. Awesome hike.

 

[ChrisB]

I think Guy Waterman once said if you don’t want to meet lots of people on the trail start the hike really really early.

Maybe even in the dark?

 

[peakbagger]

On an infamous hike from H*ll one winter day we ended up coming down an unbroken North Weeks to the Unbroken York Pond trail. Stayin on the actual trail was impossible. When we hit the York Pond trail staying on trail basically consisted of trying to stay in the middle of the most open area. The moon was out and we had a streetlight at the York Pond FIsh Hatchery to aim for. Its an old railroad grade so relatively straight until the last mile where it has been relocated off the old grade. We spend a couple of hours trying to make it to the trailhead coming darn close to midnight. Some of us were borderline hypothermic. The funny thing was we had a turnaround time but the group think was it was about the same distance back the way we came then to go forward so we ignored common sense and kept going into ever worsening snow conditions. In this case the final half of the trail took us well over double the time.

IMO unless its and in and out hike via the same trail, any estimates coming out via a different trail can really be way off. Talk to many parties over the years that have had to reclimb Lafayette after spending an inordinate amount of time in a futile effort to find where the Skook trail heads back in the woods.

 

[DayTrip]

IMO unless its and in and out hike via the same trail, any estimates coming out via a different trail can really be way off. Talk to many parties over the years that have had to reclimb Lafayette after spending an inordinate amount of time in a futile effort to find where the Skook trail heads back in the woods.

My very first sunset hike (the one I alluded to above) was actually up the Skook in a mid-OCT Sunday evening for sunset on Lafayette. Did the whole trail and spent about 10 minutes alone on summit before I saw a group of eight approaching from South. By the time I got back to North Lafayette it was pretty much dark. As I made my way down the open steep section to the Skook junction I got off trail numerous times. The party of 8 was shortly behind me and I guess assumed I was on trail so they followed my headlamp down and made all the wrong turns too. I did find the Skook with no problem though and stopped for a snack. It's a favorite trail of mine and I know that little flat plateau very well, even with snow on it. I apologized for the errors but they were continuing down the GRT so I had the Skook to myself all the way back to the car. It was very eerie with the wind blowing the trees and the noise of creaking all the way down, especially for my first night hike. I have come to enjoy that noise now.

 

[hikerbrian]

IMO unless its and in and out hike via the same trail, any estimates coming out via a different trail can really be way off. Talk to many parties over the years that have had to reclimb Lafayette after spending an inordinate amount of time in a futile effort to find where the Skook trail heads back in the woods.

Totally agree. I think the difference in risk and commitment between an out-and-back compared to a loop is severely underappreciated by most.