Celts on Mt Dickey?

[SteveHiker]

I did the Welch-Dickey Loop today. I met a couple near the summit of Welch that told me of a carving in the ledge on the way down Dickey. They said it was a circle and if you stood in it on the summer solistice, that the sun rose over a nearby stone. They said that one theory was that it was put there by Celts in ancient times. They also said that there was something written about it at the trailhead, but when we got to the bottom we couldn't find anything about it.

When we finally got to the spot, I was less than impressed. There is a circular depression in the rock but it is hardly noticeable. There is a standing stone off towards the east. (I went by the direction of the sun, didn't check the compass).

Having been suckered into going to America's Stonehenge in Salem, NH a few years back, I must say I'm quite skeptical about this type of thing.

I tried to use Google to find out about this, but nothing seems to be coming up. Has anyone heard about this before?

 

[nartreb]

Bit of a problem with the Celt theory: the megaliths in Europe are PRE-Celtic. By thousands of years.

 

[erd]

There's a long American tradition of belief in such things (oddly enough, I was talking about similar issues with some VFTT friends on a hike yesterday). It goes back to the 19th century Lost Tribes theory, in part, plus the eccentric mystical proclivities of such people as Ignatius Donnelly and Joseph Smith.

There is some evidence, in the SW US, of calendrically-related stones etc. Some native American tribes were mound-builders (but many cultures globally did this, for a variety of reasons).

HOWEVER--despite occasional claims to the contrary, I have never read any compelling evidence for European cultural migration any further back than the Norse. All early settlers, Norse & Puritan alike, made coastal setllements, as foraging was easier there (and even these frequently succumbed, vide Roanoke). The last place any settler scrabbling for survival would have headed is into the mountains!

Further (as the last poster noted) the Celts are to be ruled out where standing stones, menhirs, dolmens and the like are concerned. The megalithic cultures are sufficiently far back that it's mighty dubious that they were seafarers. They must have been agrarian, as this would have been a prerequisite for Avebury, Stonhenge, Carnac and the many other European sites. It takes a strong, settled culture to create these things.

Thede were a skilful people, of course, who needed knowledge of the seasons for planting etc. and who therefore had some astronomical sophistication--that much is true. But we are talking of a culture that flourished around 2500-1500 BC in *Europe.* BTW, given the 4000-year interval, the various astronomical points (solar horizon positions, etc.) that *were* indicated by such structures as Stonehenge have to be corrected for precession--they don't line up well today.

Many (all?) supposed New World alignments are the result of good imaginations and sheer chance--given that any two points make a line, it has to point somewhere, and statistically some alignments of boulders etc. WILL inevitably point to astronomically significant points.

My two cents!

Ted.

 

[Warren]

There's a book, 1421 that argues that the Chinese reached the NE coast and spent time inland. The building of stations to monitor astrological events (mainly lunar eclipses) is cited among the prime evidence.

 

[erd]

Hey, Warren!

I didn't know the book in question (though I've now looked at the information on-line). However, the NE Coast? Would this not have involved them rounding Tierra del Fuego? The NW I can see at a pinch, but this would have been a prodigious feat, as the seas at Cape Horn can be extraordinarily destructive.

I'll have to keep an eye out for Menzies' volume and suspend judgment, but in any case it certainly wouldn't have been the Chinese manner to create standing stones and the like--far too primitive. And to penetrate inland would have been a feat that beggars the imagination.

None the less, I'm far less skeptical of this claim than that European cultures of the late Stone Age could have made it over here. The Chinese had a vast Civil Service and infrastructure to enable such a task--we don't know if the builders of the megaliths even had boats of any size. It's fun to consider these things, and if one day a stone circle is discovered on a Catskill peak, no-one will be as excited as I (hey, we already have a meteor crater).

The most enigmatic sighting yesterday was a line of small snowmen on top of Table. But I understand that Sponge Bob had been seen in the vicinity... <g>

Ted.

 

[funkyfreddy]

I’m pretty skeptical about such theories myself but entertain them often........ Hey, it’s fun - the wilder the better in my opinion. Wouldn’t bet money on any of them but like to read this stuff from time to time. I borrowed the DVD of "1421" from the library a few months ago. I enjoyed it as a theory but don't find the evidence too compelling.

One book which was very well written and researched is “Manitou” by James W. Mavor, Jr. and Byron E. Dix published 1989 by Inner Traditions International. It has lots of pictures and illustrations. The authors of this book give Native Americans credit for these interesting stone structures, which does seem a bit more plausible then Celts, Phoenicians, etc. Another book on the subject is “America, B.C.” by Barry Fell, which has all kinds of wild theories - Druids in Vermont, Phoenicians in Iowa, and a virtue conglomerate of ancient cultures like Romans, celts, Egyptians, etc. trading with the natives and scratching messages on stone. He mentions almost everything aside from aliens - perhaps if he had lived longer he would have included them as well!

Another book I've found interesting is “Sermons In Stone” by Susan Allport. No crackpot theories in this one but fascinating details about history, northeast settlement, stone walls and stone work in general

Here are a few websites for your interest and edification. Hope you enjoy!

http://www.neara.org/index.html

http://www.faculty.ucr.edu/~legneref/bronze/bronze6.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5645/saaredrock.html

http://www.concordma.com/magazine/oct98/sacred2.html

http://members.skyweb.net/~channy/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/howthesungod/webs11-Inhoudsopgave.htm

http://sacredsites.com/index.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3457/CRiver.htm

http://www.aliendave.com/UUFOH_TheRanchPortal.html

 

[SteveHiker]

Thanks for the replies. I didn't mean to start a debate on whether or not ancient Europeans crossed the Atlantic or not. I suppose it's possible, but I don't see enough hard evidence. It makes for interesting stories.

Having said that, I was really just interested in knowing if anyone else had heard of this particular story. And why is there no longer any mention of it at the trailhead?

 

[caleb]

Another way to approach this is through the portal of science, especially since it's not nearly as hide-bound as it formerly was (as in the time of Barry Fell). Google Meadowcroft (Adovasio) or Monte Verde (Dillehay). Unlike Barry Fell, who merely sensed the historical inevitability of diffusion, these two archaeologists have actually deepened the understanding and knowledge of the diffuse peopling of the Americas.

 

[erugs]

I've asked quite a few people, NH historians/scholars and the like, and haven't found anyone who knows about this particular stone circle. One friend, who is a geologist, said he thouht it was "very" old, i.e. prehistoric, and man-made, not natural. I took a picture in case anyone reading this is interested, but I'm not sure how to reduce it so it can be posted...

 

[funkyfreddy]

Google Meadowcroft (Adovasio) or Monte Verde (Dillehay).

Caleb, I just did and ended up reserving both of their books at the NYC Public Library. I look forward to reading them. Thanks for the recommendation!

Ellen, I would like to see the picture if you could post it somewhere or e-mail to me.