Cog Railroad Expanding Winter Operations

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Also to infer that clipping of trees will only inevitably occur by skiers is just pure conjecture. Yes there have been instances of that practice in New England but most of that is now decades old. If anything a heightened awareness of that poor practice on Forest Service Land has occurred. One only needs to look at the extremely proficient, ethical and organized efforts of The Granite State Back Country Alliance. Education and training has increased among the skiing community. With that comes increased responsibility and self reliance. In other words the effort is moving in a positive direction on many levels. Let's not make assumptions without hard facts.

The cut line out of Monroe Brook isn't decades old. I'm all for thinning out lines, but the Presis isn't a place for that.

I think for many the Presis have long been one of the Northeast's crowning test pieces, one of the few places where we can access committing alpine BC lines. It loses some of that allure when you can just take a cat up. It's a mini version of the conflict between the backcountry skiers and heli operators in the Wasatch. But, I'm an old curmudgeon.
 
I think it is in a few ways.

First, in does not involve Cog-provided access.

Second, as the report makes clear, the accident illustrates the importance of being aware of recent wx history of the area:

If we have new snow and wind you are likely to find slabs of drifted snow with the potential to be unstable, resulting in an avalanche when additional load is added such as a skier or climber.

A few inches here, a few inches there, it adds up. Especially when scooped into gullies by north west winds (which were quite high in the prior days).

Which leads me to an interesting question: Should / will the Cog operate its ski shuttle in times of high avi danger? If so, is there a liability issue for Mr. Presby here?
 
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IMHO, No increased liability, NH courts have aggressively supported the NH recreational liability statutes over the years. Unless it can be determined that the firm that sells the ticket has deliberately set up a situation where the guest gets hurt on the premises, the firm is not liable. There have been many attempts to circumvent the law by injured parties, but generally the cases are thrown out quickly even if they make it to court. The biggest issue may be the PR management of adverse events if they happen. IF the press turns against the Cog, they potentially lose summer traffic as well as winter traffic. That said even Wildcat and other slopes do voluntarily shut down lifts in heavy wind events. Note I think the discussion is directed to off Cog premise activities, in that case the lawsuit against the USFS and Tuckerman's Ravine hazards that was dismissed probably establishes the precedent https://www.nhd.uscourts.gov/sites/default/files/opinions/99/99PB005.pdf. I believe there have been attempts in the past to collects damages for events occurring out of bounds of ski areas where the access was from the ski area. I do not believe they have been successful. I think the recreational liability rules vary by state, but ultimately My guess is a ski business is not going to set up in state that does not have some version as otherwise getting insurance would be prohibitive.

Note the USFS did a blanket ban on access to Cutler River drainage last year due to public health concerns. I am not aware of any litigation against that order.
 
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IMHO, No increased liability, NH courts have aggressively supported the NH recreational liability statutes over the years.

Thanks for that info Peakbagger. I hope you are right.

Given the paucity of state-supported SAR in NH, I would expect howls of protest from FS, F&G, State Police and the National Guard.
 
IMO You get into a behind the scenes political issue. The state prevented the lower base station road from being plowed for years. Yes there was use at the base station but far less prior to plowing. NH DOT's contention was the road and the subbase was not built for winter operations and would need a major upgrade for winter use. The new at the time, Cog part owner Presby and his partners petitioned the state to allow the road to be plowed, it was denied several times over several years. There was a shift in the political tides and one year it was approved with zero upgrades except modifying it to get the snowmobile traffic off the road. NH DOT rarely if ever voluntarily adds a road to their schedule especially a maintenance prone road, no doubt resources had to shifted and stretched to support this effort. My contention is DOT was told to suck it up by someone high up in government that supported the Cog. They sure didnt do it for hikers and BC skiers, who are regarded as deadbeats, but we sure did benefit. No doubt F&G and to a far lesser extent the State Police may allow low level dissention about potential rescue issues on the west side but if the powers that be decide that Cog deserves support, the leadership of the departments will follow their orders. Take a look at how often the F&G director is replaced, generally it is down to funding and resources, the new director is happy to move into the position (great for bumping up the very important last few years of pre-retirement income) but fairly quicky they realize that the funding and budget does not cover what is expected of them. There are a few battles for more funding with the legislature and then the director heads off to greener pastures. There are parallels with the ATV situation, F&G at a low level is allowed to be unhappy at the added workload, but ultimately their leadership accepts the task no matter what the impact, as its good for the state and the all-important room and meals tax. This added work load leads to retirements and burn out of the remaining front-line officers. They hang around because of their love for the job and the occasional rewards of being TV stars plus the all-important state retirement. The national guard drew a line a few years back and started charging the state for rescues, previously they were charged off to training. The winds have shifted and now there is a plan to station a National Guard helicopter at the Berlin airport in Milan with a support facility at the former national guard armory in Berlin. They report to the state so if the state administration decides winter operations at the Cog are important they will support it.

The FS is not directly constrained by state political forces but generally they try not to mess with state politics, the chief ranger's position is regarded as a prime preretirement position and a FS employee does not get to that level in the organization by rocking the boat. I think as long as the snow cats stop below treeline at the warming huts the FS will not make noise at least initially.

Note there have been a few cases over the years where regionally high-profile state employees have been muzzled after speaking out against the management policy with respect to rescues, some took their punishment and eventually were rewarded and others retired. Politics is not pretty; we have gotten occasional glimpses of the north country politics on occasion from a former employee but my guess is he would rather put it behind him. Sadly we rarely hear about it in the local press as the majority of the local papers are no longer news organizations as much as tourist dependent shoppers.

F&G officers hired prior to 2012 are eligible to retire at age 45 after 20 years of service with pension and long term medical benefits. To many that is pretty powerful incentive to stick it out. That turnover is going to be hitting F&G and other departments for another 8 or 9 years.
 
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If the Snowcat Operation were to get approved it will be interesting to see if there is a change in the uphill/downhill traffic by non-paying customers. Much like the changes in policy already instituted by privately owned and Forest Service land leased Ski Areas. Will there be a limiting of that traffic to certain time frames or at all and in certain cases for a fee?
 
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If the Snowcat Operation were to get approved it will be interesting to see if there is a change in the uphill/downhill traffic by non-paying customers. Much like the changes in policy already instituted by privately owned and Forest Service land leased Ski Areas. Will there be a limiting of that traffic to certain time frames or at all and in certain cases for a fee?

Thought you might like this. Ha. On a side note Peakbagger the Base Road is plowed by the Cog. And that was the best thing for the state to have done. Allowing the Cog to be accessed year round for safety repairs and badly needed maintaince for one of USA's and New Hampshires premire attractions.
 

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Great this is change from when the road was reopened by the state for winter use. Thanks for the update.
 
The Coos County Planning Board approved the Cog proposal. The Berin Sun (paywall) has an article with additional info. With respect to off cog property skiing the owner had this comment Mount Washington Railway owner Wayne Presby said anyone who wishes to ride on the Snowcat will be required to purchase a Hike-Safe card from the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department and will be asked to stay on the property owned by the railway.

The article also states that the 10-passenger snowcat will be used as an additional emergency support for cog passengers, skiing, tours and to assist Fish and Game with rescues.
 
Thought you might like this. Ha. On a side note Peakbagger the Base Road is plowed by the Cog. And that was the best thing for the state to have done. Allowing the Cog to be accessed year round for safety repairs and badly needed maintaince for one of USA's and New Hampshires premire attractions.

Odd that someone would leave their skis there.
 
Regarding the legal issues in case of an accident....

To date as others mentioned, liability on skiing has been hard to pin on resorts and even more so if you ski OOB. However, in places out west, they have terrain inside and outside of the ropes. I'm thinking most of us would classify the train cut, ROW as an out of bounds terrain. Do OOB places and heli-skiing locations have warming huts out of bounds?

Are you a ski resort if you have no in-bound skiing? As others mentioned, from time to time, the resorts close down upper lifts and slopes in high wind or extreme cold conditions. A snow cat would be able to go in conditions that a chair might not. (being stuck on a chair in 60+ winds in the winter would get ugly fast)

On a hiking related note, with the projected increase in traffic, will there be less or no parking for hikers at Base Station? Will USFS start plowing the hiker lot?
 
The USFS Ammo parking lot was built deliberately on FS land. At the time, roughly after the current Cog owner and his partner first bought out the prior owner's, they requested that the hiking trails be moved off the Cog's inholding. The cog also was charging hikers for parking during non snow season and with the primary access to Lake of Crowds being the Cog lot I expect AMC was uphappy about the situation. Therefore, the USFS lot was built with parking fee money. Initially it was not plowed but soon after the base station road started getting plowed and the cog decided to start charging, the FS started plowing the Ammo lot. Therefore, it was the hiker's choice, either pay for an annual parking pass and park at the FS Ammo lot or pay a few bucks to park at the Cog lot and save a few minutes and take the former trail routes which are kept open for the convenience of the Cog customers. Note in the intervening years the trail from the Ammo lot had a washed out bridge and the only access to the Jewell was via the Cog lot. I do not believe that the cog was charging for Winter parking during this time. The problem with parking fees at the Cog is that the typical hiker traffic did not justify assigning an employee to manage it in winter. Available parking area is function of plowing, so I do not see where they will run out of space if they are collecting a parking fee.

Note that the Cog reportedly switched from a parking fee per car to a recreational access fee per person a few years ago. The difference is that anyone on Cog property regardless of where they parked is supposed to be paying an access fee if they are on the property. This deals with vanloads of people paying one parking fee or folks entering the cog property from elsewhere like the Ammo Lot but far more importantly by charging per person, NH recreational liability wavier used by ski areas can be noticed to all the individuals on the property. I do not know if the cog is actively pursuing folks that do not buy passes. The standard reliability waiver accorded to landowners in NH does not apply to the cog as that only applies to properties where there is no fee to enter.

If you look at the numbers, a 10 passenger snowcat is not going to be moving a lot of people on a daily basis. My guess would be 12 runs at 40 minutes (Up and back) each based on 8 hours of daylight. The Cog has discussed running ski trains using the diesel cogs and have built warming huts with outhouses at the top of their intended maintained slope so if that was put in place the numbers would be a lot higher. My guess the unit cost is lot less with diesel cog than a snowcat so unless the snowcat charges quite premium, I question the profit unless its proof of concept for running snow trains.
 
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If you look at the numbers, a 10 passenger snowcat is not going to be moving a lot of people on a daily basis. My guess would be 12 runs at 40 minutes (Up and back) each based on 8 hours of daylight. The Cog has discussed running ski trains using the diesel cogs and have built warming huts with outhouses at the top of their intended maintained slope so if that was put in place the numbers would be a lot higher. My guess the unit cost is lot less with diesel cog than a snowcat so unless the snowcat charges quite premium, I question the profit unless its proof of concept for running snow trains.

Maybe the cat will do double duty: I imagine the Cog will need to groom the ROW on a regular basis.
 
Reading through thoughts and points on this made me wonder if this effort would need to fall into identifying themselves as a ski area and be required to comply with NH Laws regarding the operation of a ski area, since they plan to charge a fee. http://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/XIX/225-A/225-A-mrg.htm

When I was at Monadnock State Park we had an XC ski trail network that was fading that I was trying to reinvigorate and attract customers to. My supervisor at the time told me I really should not require the park use fee, since we were unable to comply with RSA 225-A due to limited resources. When I oversaw Milan Hill State Park and worked with the Nansen Ski Club to build their ski touring operation in the park, it was important for both the club and the state to figure out a way for the club to receive money from the public without requiring a fee, and this was through club membership and fundraising drives with the trails kept open to all. All to comply with RSA 225 and reduce liability.

I read that RSA many times. but not being a lawyer or a college graduate, I may not have been interpreting things correctly, and this may not apply to the proposed Cog ski operations at all. And quite frankly that despite years of contributing wording to NH Laws and Rules, even the best of us with the state only got a headache from trying to interpret state rules and laws. Besides, NH state government is so short-staffed and limited right now, that it probably would not matter anyways.
 
I am also not a lawyer. The RSA sets down the law but usually there are administrative rules that are less accessible that set how the state agents will enforce the statute.

A few lines stick out with respect to out of boundary and trespass

225-A:24 Responsibilities of Skiers and Passengers.
V. No skier, passenger or other person shall:

(g) Ski or otherwise access terrain outside open and designated ski trails and slopes or beyond ski area boundaries without written permission of said operator or designee.

V. No ski area operator shall be held responsible for ensuring the safety of, or for damages including injury or death resulting to, skiers or other persons who utilize the facilities of a ski area to access terrain outside open and designated ski trails. Ski areas shall not be liable for damages, including injury or death, to persons who venture beyond such open and designated ski trails.
VI. A ski area operator owes no duty to anyone who trespasses on the ski area property.


My "non legal" interpretation. If someone buys a Cog pass, the Cog is not liable for injuries and accidents to guests on the Cog property as long as the Cog meets the other requirements of the RSA.

Going out of bounds violates the clearly defined responsibilities of the Skier and therefore the ski area has no exposure

If the snowcat (or future cog) is used to access terrain off the property boundary the Cog is not liable for any injury or death.

People who trespass on the property do so at their own risk. I expect that hikers or skiers who on occasion elect to hike or ski up or down the powerline "road" on the Cog land are trespassing, the cog can either sell them a pass or attempt to prosecute for trespass (if there is proper noticing at the boundaries of the property).
 
I am not a lawyer either but I would bet that Presby and company have a few on retainer and have already covered their behinds or they wouldn't be offering this product.

Tim
 
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