Crampon Viewers Choice Awards...

[Jkrew81]

Hey all! I am purchasing a new pair of crampons for the winter and I was wondering if anyone had any good suggestions. I think I have my mind set on either Grivel G12 New Matic’s. I have used Black Diamond Contact Straps for the last 2 years but I found that on steeper terrain that 10 points left me feeling abit unstable at certain times. Another brand that seems interesting is CAMP USA, which has some good-looking equipment at reasonable prices. Any thoughts?

PS. Referencing the grading system discussed yesterday, which was great info, I stick to Category IV and below, so I have no need for rigid pon’s.


Thanks for the suggestions....

 

[John S]

I can’t help with the selection but if you’re sold on the G12 NewMatics, check with Climb High in S. Burlington, VT. I’m pretty sure it was the G12s I saw on sale there last week for $90.

 

[Chip]

I've got Grivel Air Tech Lights with the anti-bots http://www.backcountry.com/store/GR...GCID=C2000x025&keyword=air+tech+light+crampon.
they seem fine, but the metal seems a little soft.

If I was buying new I'd get the G12's with anti-bots. Cheapest I've seen these new is about $130.00

 

[linehant]

>>I found that on steeper terrain that 10 points left me feeling abit unstable at certain times. <<

Can you explain what you mean by "unstable"? When does it occur?

The reason for the question is that the difference between 10-point and 12-point is usually aft of the secondary points. It's a marginal improvement for most circumstances.

On "steeper terrain", if you're front-pointing, you're working off the front and secondary points when the snow is icy; the added points won't do much for you. If the snow is soft, you'll more-or-less be kicking steps and basically walking up the slope; in which case the aded points really aren't necessary.

If you're using French technique, you'll be stomping the points into the snow/ice. An additional set of points might make the placement more secure... but they're more of the same: there are already 8 other points working to hold your foot in place on the slope.

So... it's the term... "unstable"... that's a bit confusing. What do you mean by it? And when, under what conditions, does the feeling of being "unstable" occur?

The G-12 is a good crampon. But... it might not solve the "problem".

 

[Chip]

Another brand that seems interesting is CAMP USA, which has some good-looking equipment at reasonable prices. Any thoughts?
...

My research indicated Camps should be avoided, no repair/warrantee support, which also indicates breakage.
I'm sure you'd be happier with Grivels for the extra $50.
I've also seen "Only used once to summit blah,blah,blah..." G12's on Ebay fairly often if you want to go slightly used.

 

[sli74]

I also found myself more "stable" on G-12s than G-10s but I think it was because the 12s were sharper than the 10s and so I got better grip. I am not certain of this but they were definitely better with the grip, making me feel more stable . . . any one else have a clue about why this is?

sli74

 

[DougPaul]

I have used Black Diamond Contact Straps for the last 2 years but I found that on steeper terrain that 10 points left me feeling abit unstable at certain times.

The primary difference between 10 and 12 point crampons is the 12s have 2 front points.* The front points are primarily used for "frontpointing" on steep ice (sorry about the circular terminology...) as opposed to kicking steps or flat-footing (French technique). Typically used by ice climbers. Also possibly of some help on steep hardpacked/crusty snow. The front points are also useful for ripping wind pants, gaiters, and for puncturing one's calves... They can also catch when self arresting and break ankles.

Given the extra weight and risk, I'd suggest you stick to 10 pointers unless you really need the 12s. (10s are adequate for most hiking.) I have no idea how skilled you are--it is possible that better technique might take care of the problem. (For instance, "Climbing Ice" by Yvon Chouinard covers the non-frontpointing techniques very well.) If there is slop in your bindings, fixing that might also help.

Doug

*Edit: my comment on the difference between 10 and 12 point crampons is incorrect for the G-10 and G-12 crampons--the additional points are along the sides of the forefoot. (Front points have been the traditional difference between 10 and 12 pointers.)

 

[sli74]

The front points are also useful for ripping wind pants, gaiters, and for puncturing one's calves... They can also catch when self arresting and break ankles.
Doug

sorry to hijack the thread . . . but . . . You know, I hear this all the time but I have only ever caught a point once and that was on an exposed root . . . it doesn't seem to be a big problem for me but that might be because I hike slowly and with each step being pretty deliberate, I don't tend to catch the crampons on anything . . .

sli74

 

[spencer]

The primary difference between 10 and 12 point crampons is the 12s have 2 front points.

Sorry to disagree, but the difference is not the front points. The difference is an extra set of points on the sides under the ball of your foot.

I too find I'm more stable on my G-12s than on 10-pointers, but I have big feet and am heavy.

spencer

 

[John S]

I agree with sli74 – the bigger difference between the G10s and G12s is the sharpness of the points. The G10 points are more rounded than pointed and also a bit shorter. They work fine on packed snow and can often be stomped into harder stuff but they do have their limits. I use them and like them but found myself wishing for something a bit sharper on a few occasions last year.

Getting back to Jkrew81’s original inquiry, however, the question was about Black Diamond Contacts vs. the G12s. If I recall, the Black Diamonds have rather sharp points. Could it be that they’ve worn down a bit over two years of use and simply need sharpening?

 

[Jkrew81]

When I say “Unstable” I mean while front pointing. The points on the front of the Black Diamonds are not very aggressive. In the last year I have started climbing more backcountry slides. While they can start off rather easy, the top can be a mixed bag of scrambling up exposed rock and ice to powder snow. As for boots, I have Makalu’s so I do not require strap-on pons. The Contact Straps did start off rather sharp and still hold their edge pretty well, but I do think the length of the spikes ( on the G12’s that is) is what would provide superior stability.

Thank you for all the feedback.

 

[DougPaul]

The primary difference between 10 and 12 point crampons is the 12s have 2 front points.

Sorry to disagree, but the difference is not the front points. The difference is an extra set of points on the sides under the ball of your foot.

OK, I hadn't checked out the Grivel G line. (Haven't needed new crampons for a number of years.) The front points have been the traditional difference between 10 and 12 pointers.

Just found some pictures--the additional points are alongside the forefoot and
the points on the G-12 look more aggressive than on the G-10.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

When I say “Unstable” I mean while front pointing. The points on the front of the Black Diamonds are not very aggressive. In the last year I have started climbing more backcountry slides. While they can start off rather easy, the top can be a mixed bag of scrambling up exposed rock and ice to powder snow. As for boots, I have Makalu’s so I do not require strap-on pons. The Contact Straps did start off rather sharp and still hold their edge pretty well, but I do think the length of the spikes ( on the G12’s that is) is what would provide superior stability. .

A rule of thumb for ice climbing is that the front points should stick out about an inch beyond the front of one's boot. Looking at pictures of the G-10 and G-12 (yes, I finally found some listings...) suggests that the front points on the G-12 are more aggressive than on the G-10. I suggest you take your boots to the store and do a trial fitting to see.

Points, of course, also shrink after too many sharpenings...

Doug

 

[Pete_Hickey]

...front points..... ripping...

... it doesn't seem to be a big problem for me but that might be because I hike slowly and with each step being pretty deliberate,....

COuld be the reason. I'm a data point in the other directions, with quite a few holes in my pants, and a few corrisponding scars on my legs. I tend to move fast.

 

[DougPaul]

sorry to hijack the thread . . . but . . . You know, I hear this all the time but I have only ever caught a point once and that was on an exposed root . . . it doesn't seem to be a big problem for me but that might be because I hike slowly and with each step being pretty deliberate, I don't tend to catch the crampons on anything . . .

Ok, maybe you haven't caught your clothing with your crampon points, but it has been the cause of a number of accidents and injuries. An ice climber requires front points and keeps his points sharp--it's a judgement call for a hiker and many hikers let their points get dull (less chance of catching, but more chance of slipping on ice).

I certainly walk more carefully when I am wearing my crampons. So far only a few small fabric wounds and no flesh wounds. My usual problem is a momentary loss of balance followed by a quick step to correct. The quick step is the dangerous one...

Doug

 

[linehant]

When I say “Unstable” I mean while front pointing. The points on the front of the Black Diamonds are not very aggressive.

Before plunking down any $$$$ for new 'pons, it might be useful to do a side-by-side comparison between the Contacts and the G12's in the store. Just looking at the mfgr's webpages it does not appear that the G12 frontpoints are any more aggressive than the Contact's. They're both configured for general mountaineering use. There's nothing special there.

As for one model's points not being as sharp as another... well... that "problem" could be solved by taking a file to them. Yes?

One other observation... I use Grivel Rambos for ice climbing, and Charlet Moser S12s (like the Grivel G12s) for snow climbing. The front point are TOTALLY different between those two styles of crampons.

The Rambo has a vertically oriented front point with a serrated underside; it's designed for use on water ice and is not-so-hot on snow. The S12 has a horizontally oriented front point; it's great in the snow, but not as great on ice.

I DO use the S12s to climb "variable condition" routes such as Pinnacle Gulley in Huntington Ravine where they work great in the snow and mushy ice, but are marginal / sketchy on the hard ice. That's just the way the horizontal frontpoints feel (to me).

Whichever style crampon I use, if the route includes hard ice, I try to get the points as sharp as possible. But, if the intent is to climb snow, I don't mind using the S12s in a "de-tuned" state as an errant foot placement is much less likely to rip something - gaiter, pant-leg, me... whatever - when the points are less sharp.

 

[DougPaul]

One other observation... I use Grivel Rambos for ice climbing, and Charlet Moser S12s (like the Grivel G12s) for snow climbing. The front point are TOTALLY different between those two styles of crampons.

The Rambo has a vertically oriented front point with a serrated underside; it's designed for use on water ice and is not-so-hot on snow. The S12 has a horizontally oriented front point; it's great in the snow, but not as great on ice.

As linehant points out, the vertical front point is an ice-climbing specialist's tool. (First one I was aware of, and possibly the first, was on the Lowe Foot-Fang crampon.) A little like a pair of mini-ice axe picks.

A number of other ice climbing crampons (such as my Chouinard rigids) have horizontal front points.

Doug

 

[Jim lombard]

My research indicated Camps should be avoided, no repair/warrantee support, which also indicates breakage.
I'm sure you'd be happier with Grivels for the extra $50.
I've also seen "Only used once to summit blah,blah,blah..." G12's on Ebay fairly often if you want to go slightly used.

I've had a pair of Camps for five years and use them every winter without any trouble. Just oil them in the spring and put em in a bag. The front points have caused several puncture wounds in my old gaitors though.

 

[SherpaKroto]

I have 2 pair: Grivel G-10 and Petzl/harlet Moser Vasak Leverlock. The G-10's aer much less aggressive and better overall IMHO for general hiking/climbing in the Northeast. However, when the terrain gets steeper/icier, the Vasak's shine. I was very happy to have the extra length, sharpness, and points on the Tuckerman's gullies and Rainier.

I move moderately, and my Vasak's love to eat pants and gaiters. YMMV.