De-"mist"ifying Vapor Barrier Gloves/Mittens

[hikingmaineac]

Hi all,

Would someone(s) please explain:

1: Basic vapor barrier theory with regards to keeping hands warm/dry

and

2: How/which part of my hike I might use vapor barriers to improve my layering system for keeping my hands warm and dry?

Here is what I currently do to keep my hands warm:

On the ascent I find that wool works best. Sweaty, damp fleece just doesn't keep my hands as warm as sweaty, damp wool. Ragwool mittens (not fingerless gloves with a mitten top - they don't allow fingers to share eachother's heat) for really cold days, or wool glove liners for warmer days.

Once I have reached a point where I am no longer producing excessive amounts of body heat (usually a non-stressful descent), I will either throw a synthetic shell over the mitts/gloves I am wearing. If they are too wet, I stash my sweaty wool and put on a dry pair of wool mittens and then put a synthetic shell over them. On REALLY cold adventures, I put a hand warmer in with the dry wool mittens. If this still doesn't provide enough warmth, a pair of primaloft or down mittens, coupled with hand warmers, under a water resistant synthetic shell would be the best option.

Thanks!

 

[--M.]

Well, even I could get you started: they may keep you warm, but they will certainly not keep you dry. I believe the more educated among us may explain something about a happy medium and a fabric liner, but most everyone comments on what ends up a rather pruny experience.

I used the bread-bag socks trick last winter: warm, but not at all dry. And pungent, too!

Good luck,

--Mike.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

In a nutshell - it stops evaporative cooling.

Have never used barriers on my hands, but have used them over socks. It does work.

 

[DSettahr]

Copied and pasted from this site

Vapor Barrier SOCKS

The first popular use of VB protection was socks to keep feet warm and dry, and boots dry and unfrozen. Without VB socks, water evaporates from your feet, condenses in your boots and soaks your socks and feet. That distilled fresh water softens the skin and promotes fungus and bacterial infections.
VB socks keep humidity high at your feet, stops evaporative cooling, keeps boots and socks DRY. If feet get hot and sweat, boots and socks still stay dry and still insulate. Sweat is salty so doesn’t promote infection as bad as fresh water.

Basically the idea behind vapor barrier liners is not that they actually keep you drier- the prevent the moisture from evaporating from you skin and then condensing and freezing in your clothing as the vapor moves outward through your layering. By adding a vapor barrier as close to your skin as possible, you will find that you get quite moist underneath that layer, but your clothing on top of that layer will stay dry because the barrier blocks the sweat. Also, in theory, once the air trapped between your skin and the barrier becomes saturated with moisture, your body won't lose any more moisture, helping you to stay better hydrated and warmer as a result. My understanding is that vapor barriers are generally considered more essential on a long term trip in the winter, as ice build up in clothing generally occurs over time.

I don't have any experience with vapor barriers as part of a layering system... It seems to me that while they will help your clothing stay drier, you're going to be hampering your bodies ability to regulate temperature effectively by not allowing your sweat to evaporate.

I have, however, used a vapor barrier liner in a sleeping bag... the experience can be described best as "clammy." I was quite comfortable temperature wise (-20 F), but I felt like I was sleeping in a pool of water. However, when I climbed out of my sleeping bag, I was perfectly dry- it was all evaporated moisture that was making me feel wet.

It seems to me that while in the North East there may be some usefulness in having a vapor barrier liner as part of a sleeping system, the usefulness of vapor barriers in clothing layering systems is limited.

 

[DSettahr]

Well, even I could get you started: they may keep you warm, but they will certainly not keep you dry.

It keeps your clothing dry (clothing on the outside of the liner that is); you, however, become fairly damp.

 

[ColdRiverRun]

This link is very good at giving the straight forward ideas. Number 2 directly answers your first question.

 

[DougPaul]

Dave.M has a nice write-up on vapor barriers: http://home.comcast.net/~pinnah/DirtbagPinner/vb.txt

The topic has been discussed a number of times before: search on "vapor barrier".


Vapor barriers are most useful below temps ~0F and the benefits increase as it gets colder. Also they become more important for longer trips, for instance preventing the accumulation of ice in your sleeping bag. (If you use a down bag, the ice will decrease the loft and reduce the insulation value of the bag.)

I have used vapor-barrier boots (K-Boots). They are very warm. And wet.

As others have noted, one can improvise VB socks with plastic bags. (Use a very thin inner sock, the plastic bag, then a heavy outer insulating sock.) In a pinch, one could do the same with mittens. A plastic garbage bag with head and arm cutouts makes a cheap body VB.

The VB should be as close to your skin as possible (ideally it is at skin temperature)--anything inside will get wet, anything outside will stay dry (from perspiration). People often use a thin layer of polyester or wool underwear between the VB and their skin as a compromise between the discomfort of plastic on their skin and keeping the VB as close to their skin as possible. (The thin layer will get wet.) Stephenson's "Fuzzy Stuff" VB fabric is reported to be comfortable next to one's skin. http://www.warmlite.com/vb.htm

Stephenson is a bit of a zealot on the topic, but his website does have some useful info: http://www.warmlite.com

Doug

 

[dug]

I've never worn them on my hands, but I do wear them against my feet and no socks in the winter and my feet stay warm. But, you have to keep moving. The heat generated by your feet gets trapped by the VBL, keeping the heat (and the moisture) in. However, once you stop for a long time, you stop generating the heat so my feet due chill unlesss I keep wiggling my toes. Again, I am in bare feet inside an uninsulated boot.

Your feet will stink, bad. At night, if camping, I take them off and put on some plush socks and let them dry overnight.

 

[DSettahr]

If you do use them on your feet, it is super important to make sure you still air your feet out and dry them at least once a day (preferably more). Trenchfoot can be just as bad for your feet as frostbite.

 

[hikingmaineac]

This link is very good at giving the straight forward ideas.

This is exactly what I was looking for - thanks!

 

[Mike P.]

Hi all,

Here is what I currently do to keep my hands warm:

On the ascent I find that wool works best. Sweaty, damp fleece just doesn't keep my hands as warm as sweaty, damp wool. Ragwool mittens (not fingerless gloves with a mitten top - they don't allow fingers to share eachother's heat) for really cold days, or wool glove liners for warmer days.

Once I have reached a point where I am no longer producing excessive amounts of body heat (usually a non-stressful descent), I will either throw a synthetic shell over the mitts/gloves I am wearing. If they are too wet, I stash my sweaty wool and put on a dry pair of wool mittens and then put a synthetic shell over them. On REALLY cold adventures, I put a hand warmer in with the dry wool mittens. If this still doesn't provide enough warmth, a pair of primaloft or down mittens, coupled with hand warmers, under a water resistant synthetic shell would be the best option.

Thanks!

So everytime you stop & go into your pack, tie your boots or need your hands for something, you take the mittens off & they are exposed to the air with nothing on?

My preference is glove liners & then fleece gloves unless it's real cold then I go to a warmer glove. I can operate all the zippers, water bottles, camera, etc with the glove liners & in most cases with teh fleece gloves too. From the time I leave the car, my bare fingers do not come into direct contact with the air.

 

[hikingmaineac]

So everytime you stop & go into your pack, tie your boots or need your hands for something, you take the mittens off & they are exposed to the air with nothing on?

I'd like to keep this thread devoted to the topic "at hand" (Vapor Barrier related discussion) and not get into a debate about whose system is better and the flaws in eachothers'... but admittedly, that is a weak point in my system.

2 quick thoughts about exposing my bare hands- 1: Unless it's WICKED cold (wind chills or air temps well below zero), I can expose my bare skin to the air and not worry about major problems b/c I have pretty great circulation and my hands warm back up as soon as I put them back in my mittens and 2: Sometimes I will wear wool glove liners under my wool mitts or just the glove liners as noted above (or, if it's not too cold I WILL wear wool fingerless gloves with the top that flops over as I mentioned above that I usually don't wear when it is very cold).

 

[REK]

This is what I did.
I tried the bread bag method on a short, close to home hike in frigid temps. I put the bags over nylon knee highs (like old ladies wear) and wore a pair of wool/polypro socks over that mess. It worked well. My feet were damp but not swimming. Several weeks later (Feb.)I went up Cannon with the same rig. I used WalMartian bags this time and my feet were toasty and damp. Both times I used the same Merrill 3.5 season boots. I bought a pair of VB socks from Campmor and I use them when it's below 0. I'm a convert.

Last winter I tried VB gloves. First I tried latex med gloves but I think they were too tight. I tried the plastic ones like food service people wear and I think they worked better. I used a pair of Thinsulate ski gloves over top. My results were not as conclusive as my hands are more resistant to cold and I did not notice any appreciable difference. I'll do some more experimentation this winter.

Bread bags are free and plastic gloves are cheap try it out.
Bob

 

[hikingfish]

My understanding is that vapor barriers are generally considered more essential on a long term trip in the winter, as ice build up in clothing generally occurs over time.

I generally accepted what you mentioned above as fact...however, I've been thinking lately and I don't recall seeing any inuits with vapor barrier clothing before

I did hear about freeze drying one's clothes: Basically, once you get into your shelter in the winter, you leave your clothes outside and let the moisture freeze. Then you shake the ice build up on it to remove it. Although, that doesn't quite work with with a sleeping bag, obviously.

Edit: I seem to recall in Freedom of the Hills that you need to be careful on longer trips if you use vapor barriers a lot or you could develop "trench foot". Could you use VBL socks and sleep in a VBL thingy inside your sleeping bag? That I don't know.

Fish

 

[DSettahr]

Edit: I seem to recall in Freedom of the Hills that you need to be careful on longer trips if you use vapor barriers a lot or you could develop "trench foot". Could you use VBL socks and sleep in a VBL thingy inside your sleeping bag? That I don't know.

Fish

Yeah, like I stated before, it's extremely important to dry your feet out, especially if you are using a vapor barrier liner in your boots.

 

[DougPaul]

I generally accepted what you mentioned above as fact...however, I've been thinking lately and I don't recall seeing any inuits with vapor barrier clothing before

The traditional Inuit use a very different clothing system than we do. They use a light-weight inner layer and a heavy-weight wind-proof insulating outer layer and control heat loss by adjusting the ventilation of the outer layer. When they enter a dwelling*, the outer layer is left out in the cold so the moisture within does not melt only to refreeze next time it is taken outside. (The moisture thus stays as flexible small crystals rather than becoming an inflexible sheet.)

* The temp inside a fur-lined igloo can be 50F.

I did hear about freeze drying one's clothes: Basically, once you get into your shelter in the winter, you leave your clothes outside and let the moisture freeze. Then you shake the ice build up on it to remove it. Although, that doesn't quite work with with a sleeping bag, obviously.

Freezing and shaking only works if the ice crystals can be shaken from the garment. However, airing a garment/sleeping bag will sublime the (frozen) moisture from it.

Edit: I seem to recall in Freedom of the Hills that you need to be careful on longer trips if you use vapor barriers a lot or you could develop "trench foot". Could you use VBL socks and sleep in a VBL thingy inside your sleeping bag? That I don't know.

In theory, you should be able to avoid getting wet in a sleeping bag VBL if used properly. It will still be very humid. (I haven't tried it myself.)

Trench foot is caused by extended exposure of wet skin to cold. (There is another form of trench foot caused by extended exposure to warm wet conditions.) You need to allow your skin to dry out for a good part of each day to prevent trench foot. This can also be done by changing into dry socks once or twice a day. (This also applies to hands.)

Doug

 

[hikingfish]

Yeah, like I stated before, it's extremely important to dry your feet out, especially if you are using a vapor barrier liner in your boots.

DSettahr, my bad! I read that post perty quickly.

Fish

 

[DSettahr]

DSettahr, my bad! I read that post perty quickly.

Fish

That's all right, I wasn't calling you out on it or anything. Just agreeing with you and re-emphasizing the importance of it. Because it's something that is indeed very important after all.

 

[jniehof]

I wear vapor barrier socks between my liner socks and my insulating socks because my feet sweat...a lot...and at the end of the day I would have cold feet and water to literally pour out of my boots. (This is not entirely a "too warm boots" issue...you do not want to smell my shoes. Ever. Even the street shoes. Even my Tevas aren't that great.)

I started wearing exam gloves under my liner gloves last year and it's made a big difference to how happy my hands are. It wasn't as obvious as the boots but I find it very hard to keep my hands sufficiently warm without sweating.

I don't use a sleeping bag vapor barrier because I need to let stuff breathe after being wet all day.

IMO the time to start thinking about vapor barriers is when you start the day out comfortable but your extremeties are cold in early-to-mid afternoon.