Deaths out West

[Tom Rankin]

What were they thinking ?!?!?!

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-07-19-utah-deaths_x.htm?csp=34

"Students are intentionally given little food or water", she said. "They simulate what it would be like if you were without water and were without food."

Can you *REALLY* develop a 'tolerance' to lack of water? I don't think so!

 

[Woody]

I think that these courses need to focus more teaching on the importance of keeping an eye on each other. I would bet that they are teaching at least something about heat stroke and the importance of staying properly hydrated. Unfortunately, the person that is suffering from the heat or dehydration may not recognize it. Sometimes the others in the group need to recognize that the person is not drinking, or not sweating when they should be (or other symptoms). On the other hand, it is probably easier to recognize if your partner is in trouble if they are well known to you so that you notice any changes in condition or behavior.

 

[adkpooh]

Hiking deaths

It is just awful. My heart goes out to their families.

Yahoo posted a similar news report.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060719...ApG2ocA;_ylu=X3oDMTA5aHJvMDdwBHNlYwN5bmNhdA--

In it they mention the Boulders school website:

"The school's Web site says its field courses teach participants how to survive in wilderness with minimal food, water, clothing and gear. "Our goal is to take you from a world of convenience and comfort and put you in a situation where you must go 'just a little bit farther' — past those false limits your mind has set for your body," the site says."

I'd say cramping is not a false limit that the mind has set for the body.

That article went on to say that participants are given a cup - and planned out opportunities for water. I have a little trouble with how dipping a cup in a stream is a survivalist skill (if that is what they are doing). So you didn't dehydrate.....how are those parasites treating ya?

I have a sneaking suspicion that this is the end of that class.

 

[bill bowden]

Hiking deaths out West

Frightening thoughts about the potential qualifications or lack thereof for an instructor at programs of this nature. Some hiking clubs have pretty high standards of experience and training for volunteer leaders while others depend on the best intentions and existing skills of the leaders and participants and good luck to bring them through.

I'd think standards for a fee-based program would be far higher. On the surface both these programs failed badly to properly care for their participants.

 

[DougPaul]

We may be getting into "bash the victim's [instructors] on insufficient facts" territory again...

We also don't know how many people have gone through these programs without significant incident.

I'd think standards for a fee-based program would be far higher. On the surface both these programs failed badly to properly care for their participants.

Liability being what it is these days, they certainly have to carry a good bit of insurance. Hard to tell about competence.

Doug

 

[SAR-EMT40]

Can you *REALLY* develop a 'tolerance' to lack of water? I don't think so!

No you cannot. The army even stopped making recruits ration water during training in high heat after medical research showed it did nothing other than kill recruits.

Saying that, something sounds very odd about the way these two died. I think that there may be more here than has been reported so far. Autopsies should help get to the bottom of this. If they did die from dehydration then it should be a criminal matter.

Keith

 

[skiguy]

We may be getting into "bash the victim's [instructors] on insufficient facts" territory again...

We also don't know how many people have gone through these programs without significant incident.

Doug

True and agreed; but I do find it interesting that both incidents invovled Outward Bound. Maybe a coincidence; but there are other schools who provide adventure programming.
My experience knowing graduates of Outward Bound, NOLS, and other outdoor adventure programs...Outward Bound participants much of the time echo their sentiments in the realm of "Psychological Mindgames" rather than the actual learning of "Outdoor Skills" more often than the other Programs.This certainly could be attributed to the actual program offering as they(O.B.) do work with alternative populations(ex.Troubled Youths,Cooperate Group Bonding...etc.) and the programing much of the time is geared more towards the Psychological component rather than Outdoor Skill learning.Although this is not the only type of programing they only offer; some individuals are seen as needing this type of programming to assist in the emergence from whatever it might be that they need to emerge from. If you look at their WEB Page and read their Mission Statement you will see what I am alluding too.

 

[woodstrider]

Senseless and Useless

This is sad news indeed. A senseless waste of life and a useless School.

The School should have it's license revoked. At the very least the School should reevaluate it's courses.

 

[sleeping bear]

Very interesting... Last week I visited the Canadian Canoe Museum in Peterborough, Ontario where they had a new exhibit about the Lake Timiskaming canoeing tradedy in 1978. Being provoked by the exhibit I bought the book about it (Deep Water by James Raffan). I read the book in just a couple of days. It's all about this same topic... how far is too far? How much is too much? Is it worth the risk? Are you really building "character"?

Can 12 year old boys paddle 800 miles of voyageur fur trading routes in Canada with no previous experience or training? Can they snowhoe 35 miles in one day in -30 degree weather? Can you survive in the desert without water or food? Each seems more ridiculous than the last.

 

[JohnL]

True and agreed; but I do find it interesting that both incidents invovled Outward Bound.

I hate to be picky but this is not true. Both articles in the above links clearly say that the 29 yr old NJ man was taking a course with Boulder Outdoor Survival School. It does not make the incidents any less interesting but there are clearly two different schools involved.

JohnL

 

[sardog1]

True and agreed; but I do find it interesting that both incidents invovled Outward Bound. Maybe a coincidence; but there are other schools who provide adventure programming.

The incident involving the adult male from New Jersey was not during an Outward Bound course. The course was conducted by a stand-alone school called Boulder Outdoor Survival School ("Boss") that is not affiliated with Outward Bound.

 

[skiguy]

I hate to be picky but this is not true. Both articles in the above links clearly say that the 29 yr old NJ man was taking a course with Boulder Outdoor Survival School. It does not make the incidents any less interesting but there are clearly two different schools involved.

JohnL

The incident involving the adult male from New Jersey was not during an Outward Bound course. The course was conducted by a stand-alone school called Boulder Outdoor Survival School ("Boss") that is not affiliated with Outward Bound.

Thanks guys I stand corrected. Although my opinion and observations still stand as far as Outward Bound.

 

[DougPaul]

I hate to be picky but this is not true. Both articles in the above links clearly say that the 29 yr old NJ man was taking a course with Boulder Outdoor Survival School. It does not make the incidents any less interesting but there are clearly two different schools involved.

The name makes it sound like they might have been trying to teach survival skills rather than the IMO all-too-common outdoors as a challange environment approach.

I will be interested in seeing what the more complete accident investigation (and hopefully more accurate) reports have to say.

Doug

 

[Adk_dib]

A 16 year old girl in the middle of no where should not be out of the instructors site (You never leave your wingman). If she was my daughter I would be on the phone with a lawyer.

 

[KMartman]

A 16 year old girl in the middle of no where should not be out of the instructors site (You never leave your wingman). If she was my daughter I would be on the phone with a lawyer.

i cant imagine they are in todays litigious society...people/companies have been sued for MUCH less...

My heart goes out to the familes of both individuals that passed. Truly sad.

M

 

[skiguy]

My experience knowing graduates of Outward Bound, NOLS, and other outdoor adventure programs...Outward Bound participants much of the time echo their sentiments in the realm of "Psychological Mindgames" rather than the actual learning of "Outdoor Skills" more often than the other Programs.This certainly could be attributed to the actual program offering as they(O.B.) do work with alternative populations(ex.Troubled Youths,Cooperate Group Bonding...etc.) and the programing much of the time is geared more towards the Psychological component rather than Outdoor Skill learning.Although this is not the only type of programing they only offer; some individuals are seen as needing this type of programming to assist in the emergence from whatever it might be that they need to emerge from. If you look at their WEB Page and read their Mission Statement you will see what I am alluding too.

I never thought anyone was playing mind games with me or anyone else in our group. To the contrary. They helped us conquer our fears, helped us draw on our strengths, and encouraged us when we were losing faith in our abilities. We did things that we were convinced we could not do but it was always the students decision. We were not forced into anything.

I feel as if I should qualify my comment or use of words pertaining to "Psychological Mindgames". This was probably not the correct or best way to describe what I have observed and have been told by quite a few Outward Bound Graduates.I should have expressed my observations and opinions more like this:"Outward Bound participants much of the time echo their sentiments in the realm of being PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND SOCIALLY challenged rather than the actual learning of "Outdoor Skills" more often than the other programs.

 

[Puck]

This is very tragic news...a parent's worst nightmare. I want to see follow up reports before making any conclusions. However, the article did say she had water with her. Makes me wonder if she had a hidden genetic deffect. These conditions manifest and a child can collapse during a mite hockey game or soccer game. there is nothing anyone could do but everyone involved carries guilt. I am not saying this is what happened, but it is a possibility.

 

[DougPaul]

I want to see follow up reports before making any conclusions. However, the article did say she had water with her. Makes me wonder if she had a hidden genetic deffect.

It is possible to become dehydrated very rapidly in the desert which can result in irrational behavior. There was a recent trip report here about an incident where a woman would have died if her companions had not saved her:
Grand Canyon: A Tale of Beauty and Survival (Part I)
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=12751&highlight=grand+canyon:+tale+beauty+survival
Grand Canyon: A Tale of Beauty and Survival (Part II)
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=12752&highlight=grand+canyon:+tale+beauty+survival
Grand Canyon: A Tale of Beauty and Survival (Part III)
http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?t=12753&highlight=grand+canyon:+tale+beauty+survival

Doug

 

[sierra]

when you rely on other people you take a chance with your life imo.

 

[skiguy]

Outward Bound participants much of the time echo their sentiments in the realm of being PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND SOCIALLY challenged rather than the actual learning of "Outdoor Skills" more often than the other programs.

The unfortunate young girl who died was on day 16 of a three week course. That team must have been almost ready to do their 3 day solo.(The leaders are close by and you wear your whistle always.)
By this time she would have had a repertoire of learned backcountry skills but something prevented her from calling for help. Even is it was an unavoidable death the people on that course will have a lot of guilt and heartbreak to deal with. I feel for the family but also for her teamates and her leaders. This is really devastating for all involved.

Exactly what I am blogging about Maddy..."the echoeing of sentiments being more of a PsychoSocial experience than the Physical experience". I am not playing down OB's expertise in being able to teach "Outdoor Skills".IMO If the emphasis had been on being a Team...SHE WOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN LEFT FOR "solo". Hopefully this will be proven not to be the case.