Deciding between winter jackets

[BobC]

I'm having trouble deciding between what jackets to use for winter hiking, with occasional above-treeline travel. I've been winter hiking for three seasons but have never spent any extended time hiking above treeline. I generally wear a base layer on top, then a long-sleeve wicking shirt. If I need a jacket I usually throw on a heavy hooded fleece over that. If it's windy I might substitute my wind/rain jacket for the fleece, and if it's extra cold I'll just throw the wind/rain jacket over the fleece. My wind/rain jacket is an EMS brand, I don't think they make this exact model anymore, but it's basically the same as their Thunderhead Sync Jacket without the "Sync" feature.

Recently I decide I wanted to add a true soft-shell jacket to the mix, because I wanted something a bit waterproof for when I'm brushing against snow-laden trees, but more breathable than the wind/rain jacket. So I picked up two different jackets, left the tags on them, and brought them home to try them out with my layering system. I plan to return one of the jackets once I decide which one to use...but I'm still having trouble deciding between them.

The first jacket is an EMS Endotherm ($79). It has no pit zips and no hood, but it's pretty comfortable. The second is a Mountain Hardwear Dragon jacket ($175), which also has pit zips, and has a hood.

My main question is, if I go above treeline, I need a jacket with a hood. What would be better as my outer layer, the Dragon jacket or my old EMS wind/rain jacket? If I use the old EMS jacket it would block the wind but for extra warmth I might still need a jacket layer underneath (either the hooded fleece or the new Endotherm softshell). If I used the Dragon jacket, I'm really not sure how it would perform vs. the wind/rain jacket. Using both the Dragon jacket and the wind/rain jacket would be clumsy because they both have hoods.

Any comments are appreciated. I feel kind of stupid for still questioning which jackets to use after 3 seasons of winter hiking, but it's because I have almost no above-treeline experience in winter, I'm still sort of a rookie in that area.

 

[naturegirl]

Winter Jackets...

I did a lot of research last year on materials for breathability, warmth and waterproofness and decided on two separate layers...one down and the other synthetic, partly to compare them. I ended up choosing Montbell and have been very happy and comfortable both above tree line and belaying. I also got great service. I generally wear both light and medium weight Techwick shirts and sometimes a hooded REI fleece for winter hiking and use the jackets or a Marmot Windstopper fleece when necessary. I also tend to run hot and am often the first to remove layers...hardshells are too hot for me. I will wear hardshell pants if necessary but prefer two legging layers and shorts with gaiters. Everyone is unique though so it takes a bit of experimenting. These are the jackets I chose...they pack up small and are very light...both hoods fit climbing helmets...the jacket in the second link has inner pockets big enough to hold a nalgene bottle or thermos...

http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=70&p_id=2301316

http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=73&p_id=2301325

 

[kaseri]

Bob,

My most used jacket is my Wild Things Mountain Guide softshell jacket. I wear it on 99% of my winter hikes & climbs. For above timberline travel I wear the following on my top - long sleeve base layer, softshell jacket and if windy or colder than mid teens I add my hardshell jacket on top of the softshell. I've never gotten cold or felt overheated using this combination.

The typical layering system for winter mountaineering is - base layer, softshell layer (top & bottom), hardshell layer (top & bottom) insulation layer (top & bottom).

I've always used the above layering system and it's worked perfectly for me. Gives me lots of options for venting an such.

 

[averagejoe]

Hi Bob,

Disclaimer --- I work for REI. I am not speaking on behalf of REI, nor does my opinion reflect that of REI's.

Okay then, while I have been winter hiking about as long as you have, I have spent a bit of time above treeline. It's kind of addictive.

Of the two you mentioned I would point you towards the Dragon. For one it's Windstopper, and windproof is usually important up there. When it isn't, or you are in and out of the trees on a ridge, you will appreciate the pit zips. Two, it has a hood. You can put on a neck gaiter. You can use a windproof balaclava, (and you may use both anyway) but when it's really cold and windy up there, a hood is a key piece in keeping the wind/cold out and your warmth in.

Another jacket to check out is the www.rei.com/product/755801 Outdoor Research Motto Jacket. It is a windproof, waterproof softshell. It has pit zips and it has a removable hood & powder skirt, (and a storage pocket for said hood & skirt). I feels a little heavy, but seems like a jacket that you could use for about anything.

I tend to carry a lot. I have been cold and underdressed up there, and while we generally survive these outings, I want to enjoy myself. If I am hiking in the winter I carry a water/windproof breathable shell with a hood and pit zips. I wear a softshell below treeline if it is very cold. if its not too cold and I am working, I wear a mid-weight top and a powerstretch top. I also carry an extra fleece and a down jacket for the summit.

I hope this helps you out some,
Joe.

 

[bryan]

if i was looking to invest in a jacket for above treeline travel i would put the money into a quality hard shell. i do have an older soft shell that is great in the trees/short exposed stretches, but i wouldn't be caught above treeline without my hard shell. in general i find that while moving you can get away with whatever your base layer preference is with a hard shell over it. i would have to be real cold to want to put a softshell in between those layers and it would likely lead to unnescessary sweating while exerting yourself (if i was that cold, or pinned down and not able to move i would go to the insulating layer i carry for emergencies).
for me nothing has been more versatile in winter than my cheap fleece vest that adds that core warmth when worn on the outside or under a shell. by the end of last winter i started leaving my softshell at home and carrying an extra baselayer instead, using my shell when it got windy or wet.
all of that said, if thinking "waterproof" soft shell the mountain hardwear conduit, in my experience, lives up to its billing.

have fun out there.

bryan

 

[kaseri]

I believe "Conduit" is Mountain Hardwear's version of Gore-Tex.

 

[KRobi]

I have been looking, like you for the right combination for above treeline. The missing piece for me was a softshell. After much research and agonizing I finally went with the Mtn Hardware Synchro (Conduit softshell). While I have not been above treeline with it I have been out snowshoeing with my full winter pack and had the jacket zipped and cinched down at the waist and the neck (trying to see how hot/sweaty I could get). With the warmish temps the last couple of days it worked perfectly! I knew I was sweating but there was no moisture inside the jacket. I am not as concerned about the wind and rain/snow as all the reviews said it was excellent for this.

 

[Kevin Rooney]

I carry two jackets when winter hiking. One is a long-discontinued Moonstone Activent anorak. It's like a Precip, only cut a little fuller. It's great when you're moving thru snow-covered trees/brush and doesn't want a neck-full of snow. It happens to have pit zips and chest zips, but I rarely use them. And, the jacket doesn't weigh much nor take up much room.

When I'm going above treeline and I know it's likely to be cold and/or windy, then I take a 3-ply Goretex hardshell. My old standby is a NF Kichatna, or a similar one from Bean's called a Summit Jacket. The Bean's isn't better/worse than the NF - was a great deal (and I really liked the color!).

I'm big on softshell's for pants, but softshell jackets don't work for me. I'd rather use a layered approach of polypro and fleece under a 3-ply Goretex.

 

[bryan]

I believe "Conduit" is Mountain Hardwear's version of Gore-Tex.

yep, that's a mistype. the synchro jacket mentioned by krobi is the one i'm thinking of. great jacket, bought one on sale a few years ago during a particularly "skinny phase" and will now have to drop a few pounds to be able to wear it comfortably again.

bryan

 

[DougPaul]

I have been looking, like you for the right combination for above treeline. The missing piece for me was a softshell. After much research and agonizing I finally went with the Mtn Hardware Synchro (Conduit softshell). While I have not been above treeline with it I have been out snowshoeing with my full winter pack and had the jacket zipped and cinched down at the waist and the neck (trying to see how hot/sweaty I could get). With the warmish temps the last couple of days it worked perfectly! I knew I was sweating but there was no moisture inside the jacket. I am not as concerned about the wind and rain/snow as all the reviews said it was excellent for this.

Tests in warm temps may not show up some of the problems.. When it gets a good bit below freezing, the moisture from your body can freeze in your insulation layer and on the inside of your shell.


I use basically the same system that I was taught in winter school back in the mid-1970s. Thin base layer (polyester or wool), insulation layer (wool* sweaters/shirts/jackets back then, generally one to three fleece vests/jackets now), and a parka-length hard shell on the outside. One of the fleece jackets is wind-blocking so it can be used as a soft shell.

* wool: the original soft shell...

I wear medium weight wool pants over a base layer. The wool is breathable but tight enough to block up to a medium wind and I add wind pants if necessary.

I wear a wool/fleece cap or a wool/fleece balaclava on my head and add a facemask and goggles if needed.

If it is too warm, I take all of the shells, jackets, and hats off to minimize sweating.

I was originally taught to adjust the insulation while keeping the shell on (unless it got too hot for just the shell), but I have found that removing the shell earlier is often more comfortable.

Doug

 

[woodsxc]

My vote is for the Dragon. I've got the MH Torch (Dragon's older brother) and absolutely love it for winter trips.

Also consider getting an insulating vest of some sort. Some of my friends go with a light down one, others prefer fleece. Personally, I like my TNF Apex Elixir vest as a midlayer in winter.

 

[sierra]

MY above treeline system has changed this year due to the addition of one of my favorite pieces of clothing ever, the "Micro puff jacket" by Patagonia. I start with a base layer of med. weight caplaline, then an .5 R1 pullover (patagonia) depending on cold, I either just wear my hard shell over my 2 base layers, or my micro puff only or my micro puff then my hardshell, all combos are effective. In researve I always carry my Patagonis "guide jacket" that would suffice in desperate condtions. The key as others have suggested is versaltility amoung the gear in your pack, as we all know,winter climbing requires constant interchanging of layers to reduce either overheating or being wet and cold.

 

[jfb]

My main question is, if I go above treeline, I need a jacket with a hood. What would be better as my outer layer, the Dragon jacket or my old EMS wind/rain jacket?

The Dragon, because it's more breathable. Managing moisture is a big part of winter hiking. Just be sure to get one that fits over the rest of your layers. And you may want to replace the hooded fleece with something without a hood. Sierra Trading Post has some good prices on British wool sweaters.

I use a Patagonia Krushell (similar to the Ascensionist) as a wind shell, and adjust my layers appropriately to stay comfortable. If it gets cold enough, I'll remove the uninsulated Krushell and put on an insulated jacket (Wild Things EP or Feathered Friends Frontpoint).

 

[BobC]

Thanks for all of the replies. I decided to keep the Dragon jacket and wore it on my Tri-Pyramids hike Saturday. It worked great, both the pit zips and the hood were most welcome. As for the fleece, that's a good call too, I don't need so many jackets with hoods so I went back to carrying my older zip-up fleece that has no hood and packs a little better.

 

[DougPaul]

the hood were most welcome. As for the fleece, that's a good call too, I don't need so many jackets with hoods so I went back to carrying my older zip-up fleece that has no hood and packs a little better.

One can get "hood build up" from too many hoods. My only hood is on my hard shell. That one and a balaclava (and maybe a neck gaiter) are all I need.

Doug

 

[woodsxc]

Thanks for all of the replies. I decided to keep the Dragon jacket and wore it on my Tri-Pyramids hike Saturday. It worked great, both the pit zips and the hood were most welcome. As for the fleece, that's a good call too, I don't need so many jackets with hoods so I went back to carrying my older zip-up fleece that has no hood and packs a little better.

Yay for the Dragon!!!

 

[J.Dub]

Yay for the Dragon!!!

How many hikes does he need before we can show him the MHSSOC* secret handshake? (I don't have my bylaws handy.)



*Mountain Hardwear Stylin' Softshell Owners Club

 

[Quietman]

May be a little bit post-mortem, but I picked up an EMS Endothern for less than $58 and tried it out on a local snow-shoe today. Bottom line is it does breath very well, sheds falling sloppy snow quite well, is very light, and comfortable. Would need a good underlayer on a colder day, but was perfect for today. I have numerous fleeces and other lightweight jackets, but this will be my go to for the next couple of winters. Glad that the MH has a club & hand shake, but a sacrifice of pit zips & hood for $100 is a win for me.

 

[BobC]

For me it was the hood more than the pit zips that made me choose the MH Dragon over the Endotherm. I find myself using it a lot. Having a hood allows me to wear just one of those headband/ear warmer things; if I get a little cold I just put on the hood for a while. If I get too hot, flipping back a hood is easier than taking off a hat and then trying to stuff it in a pocket or putting it away in my backpack. It may be a bit hard to justify an extra $100 or so for a hood and pit zips...but I really like this jacket so I don't have any regrets. I spend that much on gas to get back and forth to 4 or 5 hikes, while this jacket will last me for years.

 

[Quietman]

Glad the your choice kicked but for you!! I'm happy with my first cheap softshell. I usually am 2-4 years behind the creative curve but now I will not buy another fleece jacket! Won't say how many I am now willing to donate to charity. I am a major cheapo by nature, but for less than $50, I am happy and so is my wallet.