Dispute involving L.L. Bean's granddaughter

[alpinista]

Spotted this AP article on the Boston Globe Web page. This was the first I'd heard of it. My Maine geography is still sketchy, but are there any mountains around here?


WELD, Maine (AP) -- A land-use dispute between Linda Bean Folkers and local residents has escalated, as foresters for the granddaughter of L.L. Bean erected steel gates across private logging roads on her property.

The property was sealed a little more than a month after Folkers had a crew dismantle a three-walled lean-to near Little Jackson Mountain, which campers had used for 60 years.

''I very much care about the land," Folkers said Friday, after the gates were put up.

''This is my private property," she added, ''and I can do with it what I want. We have gates on all our forested properties."

Citing damage from all-terrain vehicles and discarded trash, Folkers banned camping, fires, and motorized vehicles on the 8,000 acres that she owns in this western Maine town. Hikers and hunters on foot have not been barred from the land, which used to be owned by a paper company and which had been open to public use.

In May, more than 100 townspeople voted to deny Folkers's request to put up a gate at an intersection leading to Tumbledown and Jackson mountains.

Some residents acknowledge that some campers had abused their privileges by leaving used diapers, toilet paper, beer cans and other trash in the traditional camping area known as Tumbledown Field. But many also felt that Folkers handled the situation the wrong way.

One resident, Bernard Rackliffe Jr., said the new gates block all-terrain-vehicle access to traditional hunting grounds, and detract from the area's beauty.

''They're putting up these ugly steel barriers that say 'keep out' and 'go away,' " he said.

Rackliffe suggested that Folkers's representatives may find more trash in the area as an ''in-your-face" reaction.

''I'm sorry they have that un-Christian attitude," Folkers responded. ''Retaliation is not my way of doing things."

 

[Gator]

I've never climbed Tumbledown, and it's not a 4000 footer, but the pictures I've seen suggest that it's pretty spectacular (the pictures I saw were during foliage season).

 

[Lawn Sale]

LL Who?

Yep, it's true. She loves blaming the ATV'ers, who get a bad rap in the state despite not being the culprits. It's happening everywhere, and I know of one landowner who posted his land citing ATV's, only to make the news, when there were no ATV's crossing their property. It's a scare tactic and it's working, unfortunately. One group of people tried kicking an old friend of mine off his 400 acres when he was 4 wheeling. They went to the town and complained, so he gated the whole area for non-4 wheelers in protest. He's a retired doctor with a boatload of cash and got rubbed the wrong way.

It's the Out-of-State mentality that's becomming all to prevalent up here, "It's-mine-not-yours", but then they complain that they don't have access to everyone else's property. No offense Alpinista, but that attitude usually comes from Massachusetts people who move up. I haven't seen it as prevalent in any other demographic group.

 

[king tut]

There are a good 4 or 5 3000+ footers in the weld area, including tumbledown, mt blue, little and big jackson. All are very nice hikes, and it is quite a nice region.

 

[alpinista]

No offense Alpinista, but that attitude usually comes from Massachusetts people who move up. I haven't seen it as prevalent in any other demographic group.

No offense taken. I'm frankly not surprised that it's mostly among former flatlanders...

 

[RGF1]

Yep, it's true. She loves blaming the ATV'ers, who get a bad rap in the state despite not being the culprits. It's happening everywhere, and I know of one landowner who posted his land citing ATV's, only to make the news, when there were no ATV's crossing their property. It's a scare tactic and it's working, unfortunately. One group of people tried kicking an old friend of mine off his 400 acres when he was 4 wheeling. They went to the town and complained, so he gated the whole area for non-4 wheelers in protest. He's a retired doctor with a boatload of cash and got rubbed the wrong way.

It's the Out-of-State mentality that's becomming all to prevalent up here, "It's-mine-not-yours", but then they complain that they don't have access to everyone else's property. No offense Alpinista, but that attitude usually comes from Massachusetts people who move up. I haven't seen it as prevalent in any other demographic group.

It is becoming a commmon tactic to blame ATVs and "Slob Hunters" when some one closes thier land to every one . The Artical could have mentioned that in Maine like NH you can post what types of use you will and will not allow for example My family posts "No motorized vehicals alowed Hunting by permissson . ( with contact info) no fires or overnight camping. We alow pople to walk ride mt bikes and horesback obn the small plot of land we own .
Must be nice to have a mountain with views all to your self .
AH the "LL Bean Conspriacy" deepens
A intersting note . Posting or closing access to a popular place is becoming a new tool in what is sometimes called Greenmail Out in CO one land owner closed his road to climbers to the climbing route on EL Diente a 14,000ft peak in the SAn Juans and then went to the USFS and said he would trade his land for a greater amouint of acreage near a ski resort hmm what ever would he do with that land . I should say that in CO all private land is closed and if the owner wants to have pople on it they have to post that . It is called reverse posting . We are foutuante we do not have that .

 

[Grumpy]

Looking at the whole story . . .

Just to get back on track, here, it appears that the lady in question (Linda Bean Folkers) has not completely closed off her land to public access. The original post, above, contained this paragraph:

Citing damage from all-terrain vehicles and discarded trash, Folkers banned camping, fires, and motorized vehicles on the 8,000 acres that she owns in this western Maine town. Hikers and hunters on foot have not been barred from the land, which used to be owned by a paper company and which had been open to public use.

I also thought this was an interesting paragraph in the original post, indicating that perhaps Folkers’ decision was not unwarranted:

Some residents acknowledge that some campers had abused their privileges by leaving used diapers, toilet paper, beer cans and other trash in the traditional camping area known as Tumbledown Field. But many also felt that Folkers handled the situation the wrong way.

If Folkers handled this the “wrong” way, then the question that naturally follows is, what is the right way? How would you have approached the situation differently?

If the article quoted in the initial post here is anywhere near accurate, it appears the real gripe is that the property has been closed off to ATV traffic. Consider this paragraph:

One resident, Bernard Rackliffe Jr., said the new gates block all-terrain-vehicle access to traditional hunting grounds, and detract from the area's beauty.

The gates detract from the area’s natural beauty more than does trash and litter at a “traditional camping area” and ground torn up by motor vehicles? C’mon, now.

And then we have this:

Rackliffe suggested that Folkers's representatives may find more trash in the area as an ''in-your-face" reaction.

''I'm sorry they have that un-Christian attitude," Folkers responded. ''Retaliation is not my way of doing things."

So who really is taking the high road in this dispute, anyway?

Nobody more than I dislikes seeing land that traditionally has been open to public access posted as closed by its private owners. But having seen access privileges badly abused in a number of places and cases, I hardly can fault the property owner who says “no more.”

I also have come to believe that the easier access is, the greater the abuse and likelihood of abuse. Folkers seems to have taken what actually amounts to a rather moderate approach in this case, by banning the easy access provided by ATVs and other motor vehicles while still permitting hikers and hunters traveling on foot to use the property.

To me, this story simply underlines the importance of conscientiously acting the role of responsible and considerate guest when we set foot on land that is not ours at all, or not ours alone.

G.

 

[dms]

Having hiked there in the past, I saw all kinds of trash, beer cans etc. I doubt that it's from ATV users, more likely it is partying teens who don't give a damn that it's private property. It sounds like she just got fed up, and decided to block motor vehicle access.

 

[Zimmer]

It's the Out-of-State mentality that's becomming all to prevalent up here, "It's-mine-not-yours", but then they complain that they don't have access to everyone else's property. No offense Alpinista, but that attitude usually comes from Massachusetts people who move up. I haven't seen it as prevalent in any other demographic group.

I've got to respectfully disagree with this, though maybe it's just the difference between the western edge of the Whites and the eastern edge. What I've observed here in the "North of the Notches" region of NH is that the out-of-staters seem more likely to post without working with or notifying the locals, but it is both the natives and the newcomers alike who are getting fed up. The natives are just more likely to call their local snowmobile club first to let them know that they'll be closing the trail down (or chat with one of the members at the Village Store). And it IS often about ATV's.

 

[Lawn Sale]

Down here on the coast it's the big money that's moving in, with the attitude to boot. It's their right, let me say that up front, because if they own the land they can do with it what they want. But, it's a shame to lose that heritage, and it's changing the face of Maine. Around here everything is still done with a handshake, people barter one item for another, and when someone has a need, the community kicks in to help. Granted it's my little corner of Waldoboro, but it's what makes Maine so great.

The ATV'ers are the first to get blamed because they're the easiest, they're in the political hotseat right now, and it's escalating. A lot of them are joining clubs, which I have mixed feelings about, but at least it gives them a common voice. If the Folkers had contacted a local ATV club about the incidents, she'd probably get free patrols and trash pickup, so it wouldn't be an issue. We in a Jeep club did the same thing, and often have landowners contacting US to have us watch their land.

I have been ATV'ing all my life, since I was 10, and only on a few rare occasions did I find the beer-swilling-trash-throwing-hillbilly, most are decent people with a pasttime they enjoy, and I know of no one that would just dump trash. I have cleaned up MANY items from partiers and squatters, however, and hauled away some stuff you couldn't believe.

 

[spencer]

The Tumbledown Field area that the article talks about is/was a mess! I was there a couple of months ago and it was appalling to see how derelict the "parking area" had become.

Good for her! If it were my land and it were getting abused like it is, I would have closed it, too.

I'm one who firmly believes in "private forests do public good" but here in ME that often gets misconstrued as "I can do whatever the h_ll I please!"

When I was at Tumbledown Pond, I had gotten up there kind of late in the afternoon and was quite surprised to find 4 or 5 locals trashing the place with a huge campfire, beer cans and brookie guts. They said they often hike up to fish, eat dinner and then return. I think it's great they have a place so close to home, but...

...why didn't they learn the same respect for the mountains that many of us on VFTT have?

spencer

p.s. the roadway was torn up with ATV tracks.

 

[Frosty]

Yep, it's true. She loves blaming the ATV'ers, who get a bad rap in the state despite not being the culprits. It's happening everywhere, and I know of one landowner who posted his land citing ATV's, only to make the news, when there were no ATV's crossing their property. It's a scare tactic

Oh, right. A scare tactic for what? He can close his land for any reason he wants. He doesn't need to "scare" anyone. If it was hikers dragging their boots making ruts, he he could close his land for that reason. But you and I know where the ruts come from.

Anyway, if someone made you so mad you closed off your property, would YOU then protect the culprits by blaming another group? Not bloody likely.

If someone closes his land and gives a reason, listen to him.

Rather than, saying, "We ATVers are misunderstood. We do no wrong." try acknowledging that the bad PR you get is generally deserved. Crying innocence doesn't work. WOrk to make things better.

Fifteen years ago mountain bikers had a deservedly bad rap. Biking associations worked very hard to clean things up, and were very successful. Mountain bikers and hikers get along well with lots of cross pollenation. The same could be true of ATVers, but not when you are saying, "We don't tear up peoples' land, it ain't us."

 

[Stan]

... It's the Out-of-State mentality that's becomming all to prevalent up here, "It's-mine-not-yours", but then they complain that they don't have access to everyone else's property. ...

I don't think the Bean family suffers much from out of state mentality in Maine. My impression is they've done well for themselves AND for their community.

Not to say what Lawn Sale describes doesn't exist. A recent "Down East" magazine article described the situation faced by newcomers to quaint fishing villages ... then complain when fishermen and lobstermen are up pre-dawn making noise loading their gear and getting their boats underway. What's quaint for one person is hard work for someone else.

Some communities are proactively working to stem the misunderstandings that can exist. The key is understanding and communications.

... doesn't everyone get up at the crack of dawn?

 

[Lawn Sale]

Decaf...

A scare tactic for what? To incite the general public against the ATV community. There are quite a few in this state who would love to do away with them altogether, it's already been on the news, and laws have changed severely restricting the access to ATV'ers.

The problem should have been to address the issue at hand, not go after one sect. But, like I said before, it's her land and if she wants to blame the aliens, then that's her right, it's just a shame. Now if it is in fact ATV'ers, then why not try and work with them to correct the problem? It seems to me that would be a mutually beneficial arrangement, not just a "Damn them" type generality. This is what I mentioned in the first place, working together. I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to put words in my mouth (that's a metaphor...).

I am not saying ALL ATV'ers are good, just like ALL hikers, motorists, or cyclists are good, that's a ludicrous statement, just like lumping us all together is ludicrous. And the bad PR ATV'ers get is not all deserved, that's juvenile thinking. Please re-read my post and you'll see that you misconstrued what I said.

I am an advocate of working to resolve a common problem, instead of taking something out of context or trying to twist it to your point of view, which is the attitude I am seeing more and more of. Like the Lobstermen example Stan gave (I lived in Winter Harbor for a few years, and he is right on the money with what he posted), the attitude is creeping into play in every facet of traditional Maine life. I find it ironic they move up here to escape what they had and to indulge in the "good life", then try to change it to what they left behind.

Sorry I got off on a tangent. My point, once again, is to employ the ATV community (free of charge, "employ" means to work towards the same goal) against those tearing up the land, if there are select people doing said damage.

 

[RoySwkr]

The Tumbledown Field area that the article talks about is/was a mess! I was there a couple of months ago and it was appalling to see how derelict the "parking area" had become.
...
p.s. the roadway was torn up with ATV tracks.

I have actually camped there a couple times, it was an official MFS permit campsite, convenient, and free. If anything, "mess" is an understatement, in addition to trash there were vehicle tracks all through the woods as people expanded the camping opportunities.

This place was long overdue for increased enforcement, if they couldn't get it I can see why it was closed off. It's sad that the leanto was dismantled, it's a historic structure and if they didn't want it a museum should have it.

 

[Zimmer]

Like the Lobstermen example Stan gave (I lived in Winter Harbor for a few years, and he is right on the money with what he posted), the attitude is creeping into play in every facet of traditional Maine life.

This is perhaps the difference in your view and mine: I DO see lobstering, and hiking, and even snowmobiling as part of traditional White Mt. life. But I don't see ATV's as such.

My husband has lived here nearly all of his life (he wasn't born here, but moved here as a toddler) and we once had a snowmobile trail that cut through our property. But when the ATV use started in earnest about ten years ago, it became increasingly problematic. The ATVers refused to use the woods trail that we cut to bypass the house, and instead cut right in front of our house. Our signs asking people to use the bypass trail were repeatedly torn down, though never during snowmobile season. After two years of this (with the final straw being an incident wherein our dog became very ill after eating some chicken bones left behind by ATVers who stopped to eat their snack just 75 yards from our home), my husband finally suggested that the local snowmobile club relocate the trail off of our land.

With very few exceptions, the snowmobilers have always been very respectful, even stopping to thank us when we've been out and they've come through (we allowed access again this year when a nearby portion of trail was closed for the latter half of the snowmobile season). No ATVer has ever bothered so much as a nod our way.

I do realize that your mileage may vary on this, but that was our experience. I wish it had been better.

 

[Lawn Sale]

Wow, that sounds like a nightmare, to be sure.

Did you ever manage to catch any of them? I try to call in any rogue off-roaders (which is more of what I do), but sometimes they just get away. Still, most clubs I know hate the stigma that has surfaced and will do what they can to rectify the problem, to the point of people camping near the areas to catch those responsible. I never heard if it worked though. Due to dwindling areas of recreation, most people I know have sold their ATV's and gotten right out of the sport. I have been approached by some people about using my woodlot, and if they're decent enough to ask, then I always grant permission. But, it's never been a problem with trash or bypases to trails.

Your experiences with snowmobilers is exactly the opposite of mine. They have never asked me for permission to cross my land, always just assuming they already have it. I'm an easygoing person, and don't make a fuss as there is no damage, but it would be nice to be asked, just once. A snowmobiler did buzz by the house last year, using my lawn as a trail, and despite chasing after him, I couldn't get the numbers, nor even find him, those things are FAST!

 

[Frosty]

A scare tactic for what? To incite the general public against the ATV community. There are quite a few in this state who would love to do away with them altogether, it's already been on the news, and laws have changed severely restricting the access to ATV'ers.

The problem should have been to address the issue at hand, not go after one sect. But, like I said before, it's her land and if she wants to blame the aliens, then that's her right, it's just a shame. Now if it is in fact ATV'ers, then why not try and work with them to correct the problem? It seems to me that would be a mutually beneficial arrangement, not just a "Damn them" type generality. This is what I mentioned in the first place, working together. I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to put words in my mouth (that's a metaphor...).

I am not saying ALL ATV'ers are good, just like ALL hikers, motorists, or cyclists are good, that's a ludicrous statement, just like lumping us all together is ludicrous. And the bad PR ATV'ers get is not all deserved, that's juvenile thinking. Please re-read my post and you'll see that you misconstrued what I said. .

I didn't misconstrue it. You pretty much repeated it above, comparing Bean blaming ATV riders to Bean blaming aliens. Excpet it ain't the aliens doing the damage. NO ONE is saying ALL ATV riders cause trouble on land like Beans. What Bean and other land owners are saying is that the trouble is caused by ATV riders. Try to accept that, that some ATV riders are causing trouble. Then consider that if there is no effort to fix the problem from within the ATV community as was down with mtn bikers, then the landowner is left to fix the problem herself. Which she did.

You keep saying the two sides should work together as if the landowner has some need to accomodate the riders. You keep believing that and keep denying that ATVs are a problem, and yeah, more and more land will be closed. The riders need land, the landowners don't need the riders. Try to grasp that concept and then see what needs to be done to keep current open land open, and reopen closed land.

The first step in fixing the problem is acknowledging that there is a problem, and blaming land closures on a giant conspiracy where the whole world is against ATVs for no good reason falls a bit short. Remember, Bean initially allowed riders on the land. It was their bahavior that caused her to close the land. Now you must convince her that that behavior won't recur if she reopens her land.

I don't care. I don't have an ATV and don't care if anyone else does. It was only the name Bean that caused me to even view this thread. But I do know that blaming landowners for closing land and believing that there is a secret conspiracy rather than acknowledging that landowners are simply reacting to cure a problem on their land will not help you a bit. If I were a landowner, nothing I have read in this thread would give me a warm fuzzy feeling about ATV riders respecting my property. I hope you do better with Bean and the other landowners.

Decaf. Pretty funny. Good opening for your discussions with Bean.

 

[dougb]

I think there's a few issues here. First, I've rarely seen an ATVer on my land, (actually, once, and they drove away when they saw me) but nearly all the undergrowth has been destroyed by them. Roots exposed, erosion, etc. We live here, so they can't have been through too many times. That makes me disinclined to support pro-ATV legislation, to say the least. And it appears that it doesn't take much ATVing to do serious damage.

If a bunch of snowmobiler's drove around my property, chances are the trillium would still grow in the spring after the snow melted. Face it, an ATV driving over green growth is going to do more damage than a snowmobile on top of a few inches of snow and frozen ground. Picture that snowmobiler cutting through your flower bed on an ATV.

I think the root of it is that ATV's suffer from the same problems snowmobiles had when they first came out. All the snowmobile ads showed them jumping up in the air & blasting around through the woods, attracting the kind of people who like to blast around through the woods and jump over stuff. Same with ATV's - ads always seem to show three or four ATV's chasing each other up a mountian stream (in formation, no less), with water cascading up in the air, or doing doughnuts in a sandy area with rooster tails of dust blowing all over. So why is it a surprise that people who buy them want to charge around in the mud and do doughnuts? And, having spent a few thousand dollars to be able to charge around in the mud and do doughnuts, they get pretty angry when told not to. A few years ago, when there were comparatively few ATV's, the damage they caused wasn't that significant - but it's increasing. ATV's are not legal in state parks in CT or NY and I've seen many areas where they've torn up trails and streams - and having a motor, of course, it's easier to carry in a chain saw, beer, and other consumables that then get left deep in the woods. I saw a spot in a state park, this weekend - about a mile in - where a stand of 12" hemlock is being harvested for ATV user's firewood at an illegal campsite they've constructed.

True, not everyone does it, and there are many responsible ATV'ers - but unfortunately, the amount of damage that the small percentage cause can really wreak havoc. The design of an ATV also makes it suitable for getting into areas that can't be reached by other types of vehicles, including jeeps, where areas had been protected from that type of damage because they fit between the trees.

So it's really up to the ATV community to clean up their act, not the rest of us. We prefer peace and quiet, havent spent any money, and would just as soon not have a hiking trail turned into a four foot wide series of mudholes (lord knows there's enough of them already). We have no stake in the game.

I don't think it's impossible for ATV's to clean up their act. Snowmobilers pretty much did so back in the 70's and 80's (including the way they're advertized and sold).

 

[Zimmer]

Interesting differences.

No, we never caught anyone, but honestly, we're not confrontational people so we didn't really try. I'm not sure what I would do with one if I caught one!

Sorry to hear about your experience with snowmobilers. Though we found the occasional stray beer can here and there after the snow thaws, they were generally few and far between. But most importantly to us, the snowmobilers respected our request to use the trail around our property boundary, rather than go directly in front of our house.