Down/Primaloft Jacket

[DayTrip]

Anyone have any experience with Ibex which uses wool instead of down??

After much experimentation (and money) almost all of my layers under the hard shell are merino wool. Have a Primaloft jacket for underneath on really cold days. Only use down as the outer layer over everything, and generally only when I am not exerting myself, like on stops or descending. I haven't personally used Ibex garments but have read a lot of good things about the brand.

 

[TDawg]

Anyone have any experience with Ibex which uses wool instead of down??

I have experience with their regular merino garments. I have many of all weights and styles and love them. Good for the trail and casual wear. Merino pants are like a dream.

Although their newish 'Wool-air' insulation jackets, which I think you're referring to, I do not. Considering the high price point I'd like to be able to check it out in person before pulling the trigger online.

 

[jfb]

Although their newish 'Wool-air' insulation jackets, which I think you're referring to, I do not. Considering the high price point I'd like to be able to check it out in person before pulling the trigger online.

I just checked out the specs online for the Wool-Aire pieces. The wool seems to be very thin.

 

[rup]

Yes - the WoolAire line in which Ibex shoots 'woolaire' into the jacket tubes instead of down. Can't quite see how the wool will loft like down. But if it gets wet, acts like wool or primaloft.

While there seem to be sport stores that carry Ibex in VT, there are only 2 company brand stores - Boston, and Seattle. Tuff to sample the goods in NJ.

But the traditional marino products sound good.

 

[jfb]

Yes - the WoolAire line in which Ibex shoots 'woolaire' into the jacket tubes instead of down. Can't quite see how the wool will loft like down. But if it gets wet, acts like wool or primaloft.

It looks like a company has figured out how to produce a non-woven fabric from wool: http://www.ortovox.com/fiber-world/swisswool

 

[TDawg]

While there seem to be sport stores that carry Ibex in VT, there are only 2 company brand stores - Boston, and Seattle. Tuff to sample the goods in NJ. But the traditional marino products sound good.

And the Boston store was a little bit of a let down when I visited. Caters more to the Newbury street, boutique visiting, city 'KoOk' than the crowd that would actually use the garments as intended. The employees didn't appear to have ever set foot off pavement, never mind climb a mountain.

 

[DougPaul]

It looks like a company has figured out how to produce a non-woven fabric from wool: http://www.ortovox.com/fiber-world/swisswool

Felt is a non-woven fabric and merino wool can be felted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felt

I have wool felt insoles that are over 30 years old and felt has been around a lot longer.

Doug

 

[jfb]

Felt is a non-woven fabric and merino wool can be felted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felt

I have wool felt insoles that are over 30 years old and felt has been around a lot longer.

Doug

The link led me to believe that Swisswool is not felt. Thanks for the clarification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonwoven_fabric

From the first link: "After collection, the balls of wool make their way to Belgium. This is the only place where there are unique machines which can rid the wool of natural stains using only soap and soda. Next, the wool is given its gentle anti-felting finish. In the German town of Dinkelsbühl, the wool is then mixed with 12% Ingeo – a corn-based bi-component fiber. Next, the wool is opened, carded, cross-laid, and thermally stiffened. The finished lengths of fleece, which are produced in various thicknesses for different uses, are then used at various locations in Europe to make highly functional ORTOVOX insulation products. What’s more, for many products in the swisswool ranges (e.g. SWISSWOOL LIGHT), it’s not only the wool that comes from Europe,...."

I wonder what the "gentle anti-felting finish" is all about?

 

[DougPaul]

The link led me to believe that Swisswool is not felt. Thanks for the clarification.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonwoven_fabric

Even if I didn't have the answer, I'm glad my input helped you find a better one.

From the first link: "After collection, the balls of wool make their way to Belgium. This is the only place where there are unique machines which can rid the wool of natural stains using only soap and soda. Next, the wool is given its gentle anti-felting finish. In the German town of Dinkelsbühl, the wool is then mixed with 12% Ingeo – a corn-based bi-component fiber. Next, the wool is opened, carded, cross-laid, and thermally stiffened. The finished lengths of fleece, which are produced in various thicknesses for different uses, are then used at various locations in Europe to make highly functional ORTOVOX insulation products. What’s more, for many products in the swisswool ranges (e.g. SWISSWOOL LIGHT), it’s not only the wool that comes from Europe,...."

Looks to me like the process has a similar start to felting.

I wonder what the "gentle anti-felting finish" is all about?

I can only guess--perhaps a softer surface than a pure felt?

Don't forget that the website is marketing...

BTW, I see one omission... Under "FUNCTIONALITY", it claims that wool fibers are hydrophilic. Actually wool fibers have a hydrophilic core with a hydrophobic surface. (Cotton is pure hydrophilic...) This unique combination has a lot to do with wool's moisture handling properties.

Doug

 

[jfb]

Even if I didn't have the answer, I'm glad my input helped you find a better one.

Well, to tell the truth, your input did not help. When rup wrote that the woolair was shot into tubes like down, I started searching and found the description of Swisswool. I then searched Wikipedia and found the nonwoven fabric chapter. My response to rup's post was incomplete because I did not mention that felt was another form of nonwoven fabric. It didn't seem important at the time. Shame on me.

To return to the original topic, I see that the Primaloft fill in a DAS parka is 120g. and the wool fill in the Ibex hoody is 100g. So, considering that I don't know the densities of solid wool or Primaloft, maybe the Ibex WoolAire has enough loft to be useful in some conditions. I'll have to measure the loft to find out.

 

[DougPaul]

Well, to tell the truth, your input did not help.

Oh well, I tried.

To return to the original topic, I see that the Primaloft fill in a DAS parka is 120g. and the wool fill in the Ibex hoody is 100g. So, considering that I don't know the densities of solid wool or Primaloft, maybe the Ibex WoolAire has enough loft to be useful in some conditions. I'll have to measure the loft to find out.

As you note, thickness (loft) is the physical parameter most closely correlated with insulation value. (EMS used to give lofts on sleeping bags and down jackets...)

US Army Quartermaster insulation table
temp ... sleeping ....... light work ..... heavy work
40F .........1.5" ................. .8"................. .20"
20F .........2.0" .............. 1.0" ................. .27"
. 0F .........2.5" .............. 1.3" ................. .35"
-20F ....... 3.0" .............. 1.6" .................. .40"
-40F ....... 3.5" .............. 1.9" .................. .48"
-60F ....... 4.0" .............. 2.1" .................. .52"
(from the 1972/73 EMS catalog)
Note: these thicknesses are for one layer only, so a sleeping bag should have a total loft of at least twice the figure in the table. And, of course, different individuals have different requirements.

Compressibility is also an issue--high compressibility may mean that the garment will stuff into a small package but its insulation value will be greatly reduced if there is any pressure, as in a pack pressing against one's back (or sitting on a cold car seat).

Doug

 

[jfb]

Looks like Wool Aire has competition: http://www.outsidesports.co.nz/buyers-guides/icebreaker-merinoloft.htm

This type of jacket seems to be comparable to a softshell like this one: http://www.moosejaw.com/moosejaw/sh...s-Venta-AR-Jacket_10048572_10208_10000001_-1_

 

[jfb]

After much experimentation (and money) almost all of my layers under the hard shell are merino wool..

Your next experiment should be to replace the hardshell with something like the new Patagonia Levitation shell.

 

[rup]

For what it's worth, Ibex has a 25%-off sale on WoolAire, and other items, thru Fri. I'll call Ibex and ask them about the WoolAire process.

http://shop.ibex.com/specials/pre-b...ign=PreBF-WoolAire&utm_content=PreBF-WoolAire

 

[rup]

The 800-customer service folks had no idea, but did give me an Ibex contact. Waiting for reply.

 

[jfb]

I did get a chance to check out a women's WoolAire jacket last week up in Woodstock, VT. It was thin. I also noticed several people walking around town wearing the thin down jackets. They seem like the perfect jacket to wear from home to the car to the office.

 

[DayTrip]

Your next experiment should be to replace the hardshell with something like the new Patagonia Levitation shell.

I originally tried soft shells based on recommendations from many and I didn't find them to breathe any better than my hard shell. In fact, I found some worse. That's what led me to experiment with the hard shell and found the overall combo much better, for me at least. And I do like having the waterproof layer on in Winter when snow and moisture is constantly brushing against you in the trees. Everyone is different I guess.

 

[jfb]

I originally tried soft shells based on recommendations from many and I didn't find them to breathe any better than my hard shell. In fact, I found some worse. That's what led me to experiment with the hard shell and found the overall combo much better, for me at least. And I do like having the waterproof layer on in Winter when snow and moisture is constantly brushing against you in the trees. Everyone is different I guess.

I didn't know what type of soft shells you tried, but I think there are two basic types. One type of softshell has insulation on the inside and tightly woven fabric on the outside to block the wind but they are combined into one layer of fabric. The second type used to be called a windshell and does not have the layer of insulation. I think the Levitation is the second type. Anyways, enjoy whatever you find to be effective.