Drinking too much water on the trail?

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TMax said:
But the standard we used to assess folks was if they drank enough that they would "gain" 15% of their body weight we would start monitoring for physical effects. That's a lot of water! And generally it was much more than that before you would see someone show symptoms.

OK,

A 200 pound person would have to drink 3.6 GALLONS of water to hit 15%. That is a lot of water. If you are a 100 pound woman that would be 1.8 gallons. Seriously, how many of you drink that much water in an hour? How about in a day? Even on really hot days I rarely go through my 3 liters of water. I have done it but it is rare.

Hyponatremia is getting a lot of press and it is something to be aware of but lets not overreact. Almost no one in this group is likely to suffer from it. You are still far more likely to suffer heat exhaustion or stroke from dehydration. Stay hydrated. Don't hesitate to eat those salty snacks on the trail, but keep this in perspective.

Remember that this is not from overdrinking, it is actually a low serum sodium condition. For the vast majority of us we just need to add some salt, don't reduce water intake. I have been an EMT for several years and have worked marathons as well as daily calls and I have hade many patients suffering from heat exhaustion or stroke and dehydration. Haven't had one who had hyponatremia. About a liter per hour for seriously heat stressed individuals (anyone sweating their a** off) is a good rule of thumb combined with some salty snacks. Oh yeah, another good (late) indicator is if you are thirsty, or if your pee is yellow, then drink water. :D

Just my $.02,
Keith
 
I agree with Keith/SAR-EMT40

except I have a question with regards to this statement:


"I have been an EMT for several years and have worked marathons as well as daily calls and I have hade many patients suffering from heat exhaustion or stroke and dehydration. Haven't had one who had hyponatremia."


How would one know whether they had hyponatremia or not if their sodium level wasn't checked? Or was it? Couldn't it be that they did indeed have a mild case of non life threatening hyponatremia?

Sorry, that was 3 questions
 
Pemi Pete said:
How would one know whether they had hyponatremia or not if their sodium level wasn't checked?

Simple. With most of what we do we only have the signs and symptoms, patient history, etc. of the patient to go by. If we suspect dehydration and the medic starts an IV with fluids and the patient gets better, it was dehydration. If they had Hyponatremia they would get worse. :D

Because of HIPPA we don't always hear the eventual outcome of all of our patients anymore :( , but I am sure that a confimed diagnosis of hyponatremia by an emergency room doc would have our med control doctor telling us about that because of how unusual it is. Not to mention how unusual it would be for our patient with a clinical impression of dehydration to start going downhill by giving him fluids.

Keith
 
So Emergen-C has 20 mg of sodium per packet (x's 2 or 3 packets) and Gatorade has 440 mg per liter......for an average sweater doing an 8 hour hike, what would be the suggested total mg's? I believe 22mg is 1% of the recommended daily value.

After a rather strenuous day of hiking I often feel nauseous with a slight headache. I eat and sleep well the night before, sip from a hydration bladder regularly, drink Emergen-C with a healthy lunch and snack on GORP with salted peanuts.

Someone mentioned that seagulls have a salt gland......how do dogs deal with loss of sodium? I know my dog is as tired as me after a long outing but she looks fine...is there a method to make sure her system is balanced?

......Jade
 
jade said:
for an average sweater

I don't know if there is any such thing :) . Everyone is going to be different and I am not sure there really is a formula for calculating salt intake or output. My belief is to just listen to your body. If you are thirsty then drink, hungry eat, and realize that these are late symptoms. Know that if you are going to be really pushing hard you should have salty snacks along with your water. Blood testing is the only sure way to know for certain what you sodium levels are and, who want to go through that during a hike? :D I don't know if there are any general guidelines other than listening to your body.

jade said:
how do dogs deal with loss of sodium? I know my dog is as tired as me after a long outing but she looks fine

I am not sure that this is an issue. Talk to a vet. As you know dogs don't sweat except their pads and nose if I remember correctly. I wanted to take a doggie first aid class because many of the rescue teams use them but haven't had the time yet. Since they mostly thermal regulate by respiration (panting) I don't know how much, if any sodium is lost in this process. Like I said. Check with a vet and maybe some of the other dog owners can relate their experiences?


Keith
 
jade said:
So Emergen-C has 20 mg of sodium per packet (x's 2 or 3 packets) and Gatorade has 440 mg per liter......for an average sweater doing an 8 hour hike, what would be the suggested total mg's? I believe 22mg is 1% of the recommended daily value.

The amount of sodium in sweat seems to be variable between individuals and can vary for an indivudual as a result of adaptation. (Exercising in the heat for a week or more is supposed to reduce the amount.)

Gookinaid attempts to match the amount of sodium in sweat. Don't know how they arrived at their number: 295mg/liter. See http://www.gookinaid.com and http://members.fortunecity.com/okinhim/gookhome.html.

There were some more comments in the thread in which I gave my recipe for home-made electrolyte. Search on "morton lite salt" to find the thread "General Backcountry > Long distance nutrition". (Unfortunately the thread id seems to change so I don't know how to give you a static url. The static url that I posed earlier in this thread no longer works. Grrr.)

Note that the different brands of electrolyte drink all seem to have somewhat different amounts of the major electrolytes. For instance, Gatorade has more sodium but less potassium than Gookinaid. I doubt that it is terribly critical--as long as you ingest reasonable amounts of water and the electrolytes, your kidneys will do the final adjusting.

My recipe (largly based upon Gookinaid) is probably a good place to start and then you can vary the mix to suit your own needs.

Doug
 
Hyponatremia is a relatively rare condition. In reference to the New England Journal of Medicine, the incidence of hyponatremia was about 13%, but only 0.6% (a level of <120 mmol) had critical levels. In the hospital, we see many people with sodium levels in the 130's and even the high 120's. Unless the person is symptomatic, we are not overly concerned. In fact, we often correct people with hyponatremia to around 130, and then we discharge them home as long as the offending cause is removed. The reason for this is that the levels will gradually return to normal by itself.

So what exactly is the cause of hyponatremia in people performing high endurance activities. Well, the exact cause is not known, but it is most likely due to excessive free water intake in combination with sweating. Now, sweating is actually hypotonic, or it contains less sodium than regular fluid in our body. The loss of salt in sweat is minimal and we don't normally care about it. Usually, normal rehydration wouldn't affect salt levels and even salt replacement is not necessary. But it can be problematic in endurance athletes. In general, these athletes tend to drink a lot and not eat. Hikers tend to both eat and drink. Most stop for lunch and I'm sure at least most backpackers stop for dinner. And most hikers do not hike 26 miles within 4-5 hours (unless you're Cavedog). What does this mean for "hikers?" Usually, a meal with a moderate exercise throughout the day is more than enough salt replacement. Hikers generally do not have all the risk factors as marathon runners and triathletes.

For hyponatremia, someone already posted a website with a list of symptoms. Most people are not symptomatic, and usually our body can compensate pretty well, especially the kidneys which can concentrate salt to up to 600meq/L to prevent excessive salt loss. By the time a person eats a meal, there should be enough salt to keep salt in balance.

Also, when physicians treat for a person with hyponatremia, we have to correct for it very slowly as there is significant problems if we correct it too quickly. That being said, we usually start off a person with normal saline as that is usually adequate. Usually, an athlete will probably suffer from dehydration, and even if they have hyponatremia, they usually have hyponatremia AND dehydration. So we start off with normal saline, check the sodium levels and the sodium levels in the urine, and then adjust the fluids appropriately.

Generally speaking, an endurance athlete should drink a maximum of 400-800 ml of free water per hour. This is true for hikers as well. In fact, I believe that hikers can easily drink more than that. If you are really concerned about hyponatremia, then just snack on GORP, energy bars, or have a small snack when you enjoy the view from the summit you're on. As for someone with epilepsy, any change in electrolytes can potentially cause seizures, including both hyponatremia and hypernatremia. As long as you are drinking enough and have a dinner or snack, you should be fine. I don't think there is anything to worry about. Hope this helps. If i missed a question, just let me know and hopefully I can answer it.
 
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