Economy Version Of Marmot DriClime Windshirt

[DayTrip]

I've been looking to find a more economical version of the Marmot DriClime windshirt. I had read a book last year and one of the mountaineers layering strategies involved wearing a thin base layer and then a DriClime shirt in combination as his "base layer", which creates a barrier to heat loss and prevents moisture getting into the mid layers (similar to what a Gore Tex product does only utilized close to the skin as opposed to as an outer layer). I gave it a whirl last Winter and found it worked very well. However, this strategy definitely "funks up" the base layer and soaks the thin fleece lining of the DriClime shirt. The DriClime shirt does work perfectly for the job but is a fairly pricey garment and I don't want to destroy it ahead of its time because I do use it often in shoulder seasons the conventional way also.

So I'm trying to find a no frills, economy version of the DriClime shirt to use for this purpose. I've searched for a "wind shirt", "rain shirt" and "windbreaker" but it isn't pulling up the kinds of items I was expecting. I started looking at golf apparel but am having a similar problem. Does anyone use, or has anyone come across, a basic windshirt that is essentially just that sort of semi breathable membrane fabric without the water repellent finish or other bells and whistles? In a perfect world it would be a 1/4 zip or even crew. Maybe some runners here utilize a shirt like this.

Thanks in advance.

 

[bignslow]

Marshalls, TJ Maxx, Burlington Coat Factory, and even Target all have a selection of running apparel (though often hit-or-miss). I've found a number of wind shirts at these locations for running (and cycling) when I don't want to use my high-end hiking stuff. I believe every wind layer I've purchased has been less than $20. Brands have ranged from Under Armour and Puma ($$$) to Asics, Layer8, C9, and Hind ($).

 

[Trail Boss]

Pretty sure Marmot's Driclime clothing is just vanilla polyester with DWR to shed mist and drizzle.
https://www.marmot.com/driclime-windshirt/51020.html

There's no coating/membrane involved. It's just a wind-resistant, drizzle-shedding, synthetic fabric lined with fuzzy tricot. It's like a combined baselayer and windshell.

FWIW, Rab is another source of this kind of garment and has been offering it for ages in their "Vapour-Rise" line. I have two VR jackets (both models have been discontinued), one is a "lite" jacket and the other is a "lite" hoody. The shell is Pertex Equilibrium which has no membrane and is smooth on the outside and "toothy" on the inside (ostensibly to wick and dissipate sweat away from the lining more efficiently). It's lined with tricot so lightweight you can see through it. You can wear VR clothes as shells or, because they're soft and breathe well, as baselayers or mid-layers.

This one is similar to my hoody but there are simpler models available.
https://rab.equipment/ww/mens/softshell/vapour-rise-alpine-jacket

However, just like Marmot's Driclime, they aren't cheap (perhaps even more expensive). I lucked out and bought them on sale; the hoody fits like if it was tailored for me. FWIW, Campsaver's Outlet current has a Rab VR Flex jacket (Large) for $100. They also have a Marmot Ether Driclime hoody (Large) for just $81. Good deal if that's your size!

You can simulate these garments by just using a baselayer with a windshell. Having said that, I've had mixed results. I bought a cheap ($45) Marmot windshell (again, just unlined ripstop polyester with DWR, no membrane) and discovered it is very wind-resistant but doesn't breathe quite as well as my VR jacket. It's possible Rab's VR, and Marmot's Driclime windshirts, use a slightly less wind-resistant fabric to increase their vapor permeability ("more breathable").

Anyway, good luck in your search and let us know what you discover.

 

[TCD]

Especially if you buy from the really off-price retailers (Target, Walmart, etc.) just be prepared for variation.

I have a Softshell hooded jacket, that I've had for probably ten years. Walmart, $12. It performs marvelously, and I mourn that I did not buy two (or three) at the time it was on the rack. I have also had some very good luck with wicking base layers branded as "Starter" and "Athletic Works." But I also had some bum items that were slimy and wet and did not work the way I hoped.

All this stuff is made in the same Asian factories. They stamp the "Patagonia" or "Marmot" label on the item, and now it's $60 instead of $8.

So you can afford to buy an $8 base layer, and if it does not work the way you want, throw it in the collection box. But test these things first around home, before committing to them on a long trip.

 

[jfb]

However, this strategy definitely "funks up" the base layer and soaks the thin fleece lining of the DriClime shirt.

Finding a way to let the moisture escape through your midlayers and shell would probably result in a more comfortable system.

 

[DayTrip]

Finding a way to let the moisture escape through your midlayers and shell would probably result in a more comfortable system.

I realize this is not a traditional layering method but I've found it to work extremely well, as did the author of the book Mark Twight. Figure if he's willing to do it in the extremes he sees it should work for me and it did. I get cold quite easily and this method of layering has allowed me to stay warmer with less and is quite comfortable. The concern is trashing the DriClime shirt. It does the job perfectly but it is a $95 garment. Don't want to shorten it's lifespan if it can be avoided. If I can find a cheaper way to duplicate the system it woud be preferable.

 

[DougPaul]

Finding a way to let the moisture escape through your midlayers and shell would probably result in a more comfortable system.

Its a trade-off: letting more moisture out would be more comfortable (drier) but would result in more heat loss.

<speculation>
The system might work well (best?) with a wool baselayer.
</speculation>

Doug

 

[DayTrip]

Its a trade-off: letting more moisture out would be more comfortable (drier) but would result in more heat loss.

<speculation>
The system might work well (best?) with a wool baselayer.
</speculation>

Doug

Thought that too but it didn't, at least for me. Instead of the poly base layers I normally use I tried my merino wool layer and it got soaked and didn't dry out the way the poly layers did. (The poly layers also get soaked but being so thin the comfort level is much better and when the high output activities stop they wick and dry much better than the wool IMO). I've found that to be the case in general actually even in traditional layering set ups. The wool stays somewhat warm but does not dry out nearly as fast as the synthetics. I tend to favor synthetics for active stuff and merino wool for stationary stuff like around camp, sleeping, etc.

 

[jfb]

Its a trade-off: letting more moisture out would be more comfortable (drier) but would result in more heat loss.

<speculation>
The system might work well (best?) with a wool baselayer.
</speculation>

Doug

In my experience (no speculation required), synthetic base layers work fine. A wool mid layer and breathable shell are the key components. Also, more heat loss would keep the hiker cooler which results in less sweating and drier clothing.

 

[jfb]

I realize this is not a traditional layering method but I've found it to work extremely well, as did the author of the book Mark Twight. Figure if he's willing to do it in the extremes he sees it should work for me and it did. I get cold quite easily and this method of layering has allowed me to stay warmer with less and is quite comfortable. The concern is trashing the DriClime shirt. It does the job perfectly but it is a $95 garment. Don't want to shorten it's lifespan if it can be avoided. If I can find a cheaper way to duplicate the system it woud be preferable.

Why not use a large plastic trash bag with holes or slits for your head and arms?

 

[DayTrip]

Why not use a large plastic trash bag with holes or slits for your head and arms?

Yah I'll just do that. Thanks for your insight.

 

[Trail Boss]

I read this part again and it doesn't add up.

... one of the mountaineers layering strategies involved wearing a thin base layer and then a DriClime shirt in combination as his "base layer", which creates a barrier to heat loss and prevents moisture getting into the mid layers (similar to what a Gore Tex product does only utilized close to the skin as opposed to as an outer layer). .. this strategy definitely "funks up" the base layer and soaks the thin fleece lining of the DriClime shirt

The DriClime shirt is made of uncoated, membrane-free, plain-vanilla, polyester fabric with good vapor-permeability. I fail to see how it "prevents moisture getting into the mid layers". To prevent your body's humidity from reaching mid-layers, you need a vapor-impermeable barrier, namely a vapor-barrier liner (VBL). The cheapest thing would be a seam-sealed, polyurethane-coated, nylon anorak (OK, even cheaper would be JFB's suggestion to use a plastic garbage bag). That'll keep your mid-layer dry ... and definitely "funk up" whatever you wear under it. All you may need to wear under the VBL is something super lightweight just to minimize the "rainforest" feeling.

During strenuous activity, we sweat to initiate heat-loss through evaporative cooling. If there's no need for heat-loss, sweat production is dialed back (or stopped). In practice I find that I sweat, period. I've stripped down to a baselayer and felt simultaneously cold and sweaty. Probably because my back is overheating against my pack so my body's (simplistic) solution is to just keep sweating. Anyway, the trick is to remain comfortably cool so that sweat production is both minimized and allowed to evaporate. The polar-opposite solution is a VBL. Keep the sweat separated from the insulating layers and adjust them per the conditions.

The "funks up the baselayer" you mentioned was, of course, a byproduct of being too warm. You felt comfortable but your body felt it was overheating and cranked up the 'evaporative coolers'. There was no opportunity for that to work (sweat was just absorbed into warm clothing) so the sweating continued unabated (and provided a nice breeding ground for the bacteria that produces that characteristic stink).

tl;dr
If you want to protect your investment in the Driclime garment, you need to either reduce sweating by staying cool (fewer layers) or seal in the sweat with a VBL.



NOTE
What climbers/mountaineers do doesn't always translate into the most comfortable arrangement for casual hikers. If you're wearing a harness (worse: full-body harness) and in situations where dropped items disappear for good, you don't have the opportunity to adjust layers other than throw something on top of everything else you're already wearing. The solution is usually a compromise that offers better "range", namely it isn't ideal for high-output but adequate for low-output activities, and performs well when soaked with perspiration. In addition, people like Twight are not only super-fit but able to "make do" in ways that would leave the average hiker truly miserable.

Example of a climber-oriented solution:
Hamish Hamilton pioneered the softshell concept decades ago when he developed the original 'Pertex and Pile' Buffalo shirt. A nylon exterior fabric layered over a fiber pile interior fabric, a 'soft, shell garment', was inspired by the fur clothing worn by native people living in the Arctic. Hamilton helped develop the original Pertex fabric in his attempt to mimic the benefits of fur using lightweight synthetics. Once you were encased in a Buffalo shirt, it was your second skin for the duration. I think hikers would enjoy the convenience of wearing one garment, without adjusting layers, but wouldn't enjoy the narrow range of comfort it offers.

 

[DougPaul]

Thought that too but it didn't, at least for me. Instead of the poly base layers I normally use I tried my merino wool layer and it got soaked and didn't dry out the way the poly layers did. (The poly layers also get soaked but being so thin the comfort level is much better and when the high output activities stop they wick and dry much better than the wool IMO). I've found that to be the case in general actually even in traditional layering set ups. The wool stays somewhat warm but does not dry out nearly as fast as the synthetics. I tend to favor synthetics for active stuff and merino wool for stationary stuff like around camp, sleeping, etc.

While wool may be slower to dry, it is generally warmer when wet. Back when I started white water boating (done primarily in spring over cold water) if you didn't have a wet suit raingear over wool was next best.

BTW, Stephenson is a proponent of and source of vapor barrier clothing: https://www.warmlite.com/product-category/clothing/

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

A nylon exterior fabric layered over a fiber pile interior fabric, a 'soft, shell garment', was inspired by the fur clothing worn by native people living in the Arctic.

The traditional Inuit outfit was two layers: a thin leather inner layer (ie a baselayer) under a heavy windproof coat. Ventilation was used to dump excess heat.

Doug

 

[Trail Boss]

Obviously they didn't wear the same garments year-round but did employ a "fur-side in" garment for winter use (from here):

In the past, a person had about two outfits of caribou skin. Each winter outfit had two layers. The hair side faced inwards in one layer; this was worn next to the body. No underwear was worn. During most of the winter, a second outer layer was worn. This was made with the hair side facing out. For a man, the inner layer upper part is called an attigi, and the outer parka is called a qulittaq.

The dark fall skins of the caribou, taken in August, are best for clothing construction. The hair is short and the skins easy to work. Later, in September and October, the hair is thicker, and those skins are valued for the outer parka (qulittaq) and trousers.

From this site (which also has excellent photos of traditional Inuit garments):

Clothing of the Inuit people was mostly made out of animal skins and furs.

They usually wore many layers of clothing as protection from the cold weather.

Caribou skin was the most common choice for clothing, because it provided good insulation and was relatively light.

Usually the Inuit wore clothing with two layers of caribou skin: an inner layer with the fur facing the skin, and an outer layer with the fur facing out.

A few pics from the Canadian History Museum.

 

[DayTrip]

I read this part again and it doesn't add up.

The DriClime shirt I have has a DWR coating, nylon fabric of some sort and a very thin fleece layer on the inside. Are there different types of DriClime shirts?

I'm not literally trying to wear a vapor barrier on my body and despite what you'd think the intermediate layers between the DriClime shirt and my outer shell do not get very wet at all. Mark Twight specifically recommended the DriClime shirt because that is what he used. I had one so that is what I tried. The DriClime shirt creates enough of an "impediment" to breathability that heat generated from activity stays trapped inside (as well as the moisture) so it doesn't penetrate and soak my fleece or synthetic layers outside of it. The big thing which is a help is when activity is reduced (like stopping or descending) it still retains much of the heat but also distributes the moisture across the wicking layers and the inner liner of the DriClime shirt so it dries quite nicely. And because all the intermediate layers don't get very wet they don't need to dry to maintain maximum warmth. And if I happen to swap one out for a lighter or heavier layer it doesn't turn into a block of ice in my pack because it is not sweaty in the first place. All the "dirty work" is happening between my skin and the inner side of the DriClime shirt. I'm no science guy but all I can tell you is it works pretty well, for me anyway. It breathes but it does so slowly enough to retain heat and keep the moisture management process largely between my skin and the DriClime shirt. If I remember right I do get some moisture on the exterior of the shirt as well but it is not significant enough to soak into the mid layers. It just stays there.

So maybe the answer is the DriClime shirt is the right garment and I'll have to deal with the longevity of it. Maybe it is in fact doing more than what a plain old wind shirt would do.

 

[DayTrip]

While wool may be slower to dry, it is generally warmer when wet. Back when I started white water boating (done primarily in spring over cold water) if you didn't have a wet suit raingear over wool was next best.

BTW, Stephenson is a proponent of and source of vapor barrier clothing: https://www.warmlite.com/product-category/clothing/

Doug

That is what I have read but that hasn't been my experience, at least with the merino wool stuff I have. When it gets wet I get a chill. It doesn't seem better than a wet fleece to me.

 

[jfb]

Anyway, the trick is to remain comfortably cool so that sweat production is both minimized and allowed to evaporate.

I used to believe in that trick, but tried to find a way to increase my evaporation capacity so that I could be comfortably warm while hiking. I found a very simple solution that apparently only works for me.

 

[DayTrip]

Just to clarify what I read, in the book Extreme Alpinism: Climbing Light, Fast And High Mark Twight in the clothes chapter describes what he calls an "action suit". Basically it is a "semipermeable vapor barrier"...(such as the Patagonia Zephur or Marmot Dri-Clime Windshirt) over synthetic underwear. He also stresses that for this system to work the layers outside this "second skin" must be more breathable so that they rapidly wick away the moisture that does escape through barrier. (He is a big fan of syntetics like Polarguard 3D and hates wool). To quote the book: "With the semipermeable barrier in your system you don't need to wear as much clothing to stay warm. When temperatures rise or while working hard, the windshirt that is your second skin and can also be your outer layer." As it gets colder simply add breathable synthetic insulation. Never wear a shell unless it is raining or snowing. His goal is to keep the big temperature differential in the second skin so there is little change in temperature from the other layers to the actual air temperatures, thus moisture doesn't want to travel through them as significantly so they don't get wet or frozen and compromised. Whatever moisture that does enter is effectively distributed and evaporates.

So how much of this is just his opinion or is based in science I have no idea. I wasn't looking to debate the strategy. The guy is pretty accomplished and he makes a compelling case for it. All I can tell you is that as someone who gets cold very easily I found it very helpful. Was simply trying to find a more economical version of the shirt in the event that I prematurely degrade the DriClime.

DougPaul: His argument on wool is that because it absorbs some moisture, where synthetics do not, it doesn't wick as well, stays wet longer and compromises breathability of the layer system and conducts heat loss. Based on my experiences with wool I totally agree. I don't like wearing it when I know I am going to sweat a lot.

 

[sierra]

Keep in mind a guy like Twight moves fast over long distances, his system is designed for that, you might not get the same results at a normal speed. I find simple layering and temp control by hiking "cool" is the key. Also, many are to lazy to make adjustments and end up sweating and getting cold a as result.