Ever tell a newbi to turn around?

[coldfeet]

Just curious.. trying to phrase it correctly but having a difficult time..here goes... when taking out a newbi on a hike (Summer/winter) if they are having a difficult time, did you ever quit your trip to turn them around and help them get back? Do some groups never take a newbi? Or by attending club and trainning sessions will that tell me about my limits? You know the saying "how do i get experience if i can't get hired?". Thx..

 

[MadRiver]

A couple of times I have hiked with my sister and sensed that she was having a hard time of it. Not wanting her to feel bad about making me turn around, I usually make up some reason for turning around that doesn’t involve her. The end result is she gets to keep her dignity and I feel better that I am not pushing her beyond her ability.

 

[Grumpy]

I can attest from personal experience that it's not just newbies who sometimes bite off more than they can chew and so find themselves in the position of making a turnaround decision dictated by prudence.

G.

 

[ken]

You know the saying "how do i get experience if i can't get hired?". Thx..

to get into shape you could get a pair of hiking boots and break them in on long walks - if you have some stairs that you can climb or hills nearby you can get a little practice going up.
the AMC (applachian mountain club) has hikes scheduled almost any weekend for beginners (join and you will get the details) - the AMC monthly magazine list some hikes from all chapters in the back for all the norhteast - - since you live on long island you would get the little booklet from the new york/north jersey chapter - they have more hikes on any weekend than any other chapter - most are less than 1 hour from from the whitestone or throgs neck bridge by car - they are from 6-22 miles and are rated by speed, and there is also a rating as to difficulty (the book has the keys) - - they are usually pretty large groups (sometimes 25-35 hikers) and many on the slower hikes are beginners - - - - for a little nicer hike, away from the crowds, there is the catskill 3500 club (they have hikes for those wanting to climb the 3500'+ catskill peaks) you do not have to be a member to go on the hikes (you can only become a member after you have climbed all of them so most on the hikes are not members yet) - - they have 2 hikes every weekend - hikes of from 6-18 miles up mountains over 3500 feet and are about 2.5-3 hours drive from the bridges - thier hikes are rated moderate to strenuous -we have smaller groups than the AMC (usually 12-18) - if you would like to see what the catskill 3500 club hikes look like i can send you a copy of the upcoming hikes if you e-mail me

 

[Warren]

In most cases, I let that person decide via open ended questions: "what do you think?", "how ya doin?", "what you expected?". My thinking being, especially with some one new to this is that self evaluation/judgment is an important skill that needs to be developed just as, say, compass reading needs to be developed.

Now, I don't always follow this, it depends: Once having forgotten a stove valve (in winter) on a friends first backpack I offered to climb the nearest high point and to cell phone a taxi pick up after having run through the opened ended questions thing. Another time, just below the peak of Mnt Daniel in the Cascades, my friend was burnt, there was the threat of rain and he wanted me to go on to the peak and he would wait for me. I turned us back.

When taking someone new out, I may micro manage the packing/gear portion of the trip, preferring to do the packing together and try as best I can to talk out what they should expect on said trip.

 

[Mr. X]

A group of us were climbing Mt. Major, of all places, and right as we were at the first major clearing, one person says "okay, lets turn around". I joked and said we really were almost to the top as I pointed to the summit. "That's the top!" she said. I said "yeah, but it's not as far as it looks...". Well that didn't cut it, she didn't really hike at all and I knew that if we pressed on it would just become unfun. So I decided to just have us turn around and enjoy the rest of the day. It's no fun if it's no fun. I can climb it some other time is the way I see it, but she was very apologetic all the way down. I was a little disappointed, but I just kept telling myself "it's no fun if it's no fun...".

 

[Waumbek]

I agree with Warren that encouraging a person to self-evaluate is a good start. I think this leads to consensus (pro or con) more quickly than any other approach, unless of course, the person is truly clueless. This is for adults. It's a much harder call with kids, even more so if you don't know them well, to balance a healthy challenge against possible overload. I'd probably err on the side of caution there. The last thing I'd want to do would be to pressure a new young hiker and make them hate hiking. But I think that really good communication can help there too, as well as some talk pre-hike about expectations and the goal. Maybe with newbies, it's a good idea to establish at the beginning of the hike that we'll stop at x or y point and see how "we're all doin...."

 

[percious]

I took a group of newbies out this summer to bag a couple of peaks in VT. I had my son on my back, which slowed me down. About half way up (Abraham) it was threatening to rain, and my son was getting cranky because we A.) forgot his Kanga. B.) Didnt dress him warmly enough. This was the point where I asked the other guys what they wanted to do, and we all agreed turning back was a good idea.

I put some warmer clothes on my son, gave him some crackers, and he became happy. I offered to the guys that we should head up to the shelter, which I knew was close, and we could chill there, eating some lunch, and then head back down. They agreed.

At the shelter, my son stretched his legs, which made him quite happy, and we saw a few people coming down from the summit, which was about .5 miles away. We all decided as a group to flash the summit, and it was definately worth it. My son fell asleep on the way up, and took a summit nap on top while we took pictures and ate some more chow.

Both newbies were glad to have put in the extra effort, despite a whiny baby, and impending rain. We made it back to the shelter just in time for a downpour, and soon after it let up, and we hiked out. My son was not cranky for the entire rest of the trip...

I guess what I am saying that sometimes making the summit despite difficulties can be a real bonus for people new to the sport. It gives them a feeling of accomplishment. I do agree that turning back when it is unsafe to continue is always the right choice. Sometimes you have to push a newbie just a little bit, so that they will reach their goal, and want to go back again. Just what I think.

-percious

 

[Tom Rankin]

We've met people coming up a trail late in the afternoon, and had conversations with them about how cold/windy it is 'up there', how much farther it is, whether they have enough water, or the right gear, etc. Some have changed their plans, some have not.

 

[Maddy]

I have a "newbie" hiking friend and we discuss safety issues before each hike.
We abide "turn around times" and carrying emergency gear is not optional.
We have discussed letting each other know if we are having problems no matter how minor they might seem (boots causing blisters,fatigue, weakness etc)
We ask each other how we are doing and understand that one does not abandon the other or hike way far ahead. We often hike a short distance from each other but we wait for the other guy to catch up. We stop and wait at every junction. We carry whistles and have a special call if we need the other person to come back.
We have even discussed the possibility of having to spend the night in the woods. In fact, this almost became a reality when we took a wrong turn this summer and I was injured.
These are topics that I brought up with my friend before our first hike in the Whites and something that we both agree on and respect.
We are planning to pull our new homemade pulks this winter into some easier backcountry terrain but we was are already discussing the ground rules and the necessary gear.
We will most likely be bringing two teenage boys and the policy is: any infraction of safety protocols will herald the end of the trip. Pack up/go home.
We are not risking kids in the winter, in the mountains. I doubt very much that we will have a problem.
When I took my Outward Bound course the first evening was dedicated to packing, but we also discussed safety issues very thoroughly, including the signs and sypmtoms of all stages of hypothermia. The first night in the field the leaders made it very clear that we should wake them up if we had any problems. Having discussed it the way we did made it so much easier to wake them up when I was in deep trouble. The leaders were always aware and would ask throughout the day how we were doing.
I try to use that same approach now with newbie hiking friends.
We have so much fun and so many laughs but part of it is that I think we feel safe with each other.

 

[KayakDan]

Since all our backpacking is winter overnights,we have never really had a "newbie" on a trip. I did take my daughter to Carter Notch in winter,which was new for her,as she really had no trail experience. We really went over the details of what to bring,distance,temps,and generally what to expect,and it went ok.
There are times that we have met folks on a trail that don't appear to be fully prepared for what's ahead. We will usually inquire what their plans are,in a friendly way. If it looks like they're in "over their head",we will give them some info on what's ahead. Most folks appreciate the info,particularly if it saves them from a miserable trip.
The key is,offer,don't lecture.

 

[Gris]

I have never quit, never had to turn around, never gotten cramps, never been winded, never been chilled to the bone, never sprained a knee, never hiked slow, never stayed up all night the night before a hike, never exercised too strenuously before a hike, never had problems with excessive vino tinto consumption prior to a hike, never carried more than i needed - and i do not have a gray hair on my head and ... :

PS - this is NOT a pre-emptive strike against the notorious liar SK, and others...

 

[trailbiscuit]

we A.) forgot his Kanga.

You fool! How could you????

Set up the parameters before you go. That's the easiest if you're leading a group. Also, try a "test" hike before you go, so you can better gauge what the limitations of the group are.

It's impossible to make someone not in your group turn around, though. But, it's important to give them hints they might want to do so. "Ummm...you seem to be wearing a tank top and flip flops. You might be chilly at the summit, since it's 37 degrees and raining sideways."

 

[Papa Bear]

I've often found that the hardest person to convince to turn around is me!

But when I do open my mouth, I usually get quick concurrance (like on the Traveler this September). It's as if everyone is thinking the same thought and as soon as someone voices it, everyone jumps on the band wagon.

I was a little tempted on Boundary Bald on Sunday, but after putting on more clothes, I felt fine. So it's a good idea to try to fix things that can be fixed (more clothes, take a drink, eat some food, take a 5 minute break) before you make the big decision.

Pb

 

[shadowcat]

calling it quits

i've had 1 incidence myself where i had to call it quits & a couple where i had to change how strenous a hike i got into. one time, about 3/4 of the way to the summit i was not feeling good at all, light headed, cold & i just was not feeling comfortable finishing the hike . when i told my partner i had to go back they did not offer to come back with me but said they'd come all that way & wanted to finish the hike so i headed back by myself. i wasn't sure at the time whether or not to be upset by this because i didn't know what other hikers did in this situation. it's not like everyone gets up to the daks or where ever to hike all the time so it's only fair they get to have fun & reach their goal. yet my partner didn't even offer to come back w/ me and honestly, that kind of bothered me. if they had offered i would have said no but sometimes it's just the offering which makes you feel better. in another situation, my niece came here from michigan & i took her up cascade & porter. she had never hiked before & was doing great but struggling. she told me to go ahead & would catch up but i just could not leave her. i would never feel right doing that. the mountain will always be there & you never know what could happen to the other person & to me that's way more important then getting to the top.

 

[coldfeet]

Thx for responding.. still trying to figure out the first message about bringing more beer! The reason i asked is because this is really my first year and I really want to attend the winter gathering. I have hiked..slide.. marcy.. steep ones in the Hudson valley and 1 in Harriman. I did it at my own pace and felt comfortable.. Seems like winter hikes have to be quicker due to short daylight. I want to go on an ADK trip coming up in Dec. It's 10 miles but a quick pace. I think they should have 2 leaders in case some "B" hikers feel that they need a slower pace. Maybe i'm just to paranoid. By the way out of the 7 experienced hikers.. I carried the first aid, small $20 emergency bivy bag..xtra fleece and shell..rain pants.. 3-4 liters of water..10 essentails ..2 headlights... duct tape.. xtra gloves and socks.. lighter and waterproof matches..I think only one other person had safety gear..all of the threads i read on this site are extremely useful! thank you! I might have overpacked for a few hours but i thought about the "What if?"

 

[Nonlegit]

i have turned myself around when making newbie moves (ie keep pushing on when you cant see cairns etc...)

 

[Grumpy]

Shadowcat highlighted an important point here, and others certainly have alluded to it: It is not enough to just encourage someone else to turn around if he/she is having difficulty. We, ourselves, also have to turn around with that person. In larger parties this brings up another issue about keeping the group intact.

G.

 

[Nadine]

Mad River, you're such a gentleman How sweet.

Two years ago I was coming down Abol on Katahdin in the pouring rain, a steep wet rockslide, when I met two adults and a child hiking up the trail. I told them that the rain and the wind was horrible up top, and that thunderstorms were predicted. They replied "Oh, that's ok, we climbed this last year and know where we're going." So I tell them the rocks are slippery and they reply "No trouble so far"....in their sneakers... So I l left them. I got down to dad's house in Millinocket and he says "I'm glad to see you, they called for help over the scanner, some hikers on Abol are injured."

Nadine

 

[mavs00]

While I can't really say I hike with "newbies" alot, since I'm pretty much one myself (hiking about 5 years), I do hike very often with kids, making me the defacto trip leader. There have been times that we've had to abandon a hike, or at least alter it somewhat. During those times, that result was fairly self-evident and it wasn't so much a "decision" as a logical consensus by all. (Example - such as deciding not to head over to Iroquois from Algonquin due to high winds or rough weather.)

Same thing in winter. I recall a hike, in which I was the newbie and we reached our pre-agreed turn around time and were not close (due to deep unconsolidated snow), we all just looked at each other, shrugged and turned around. No argument, or struggle with decisions at all. We reached the point at which we had already determined would "END" the hike, and that was that. That was a hike with fellow VFTTer's crazymama and JimB (and Jim's brother). We'd never met before the hike, but we'd set criterea beforehand and it never became an issue.

One thing, I believe strongly in, is that if you begin a hike together, you end it together (successful or not). The only deviation would be if you all agreed that that was okay PRE-HIKE. I don't believe in the "Go on without me, I'll catch up theory". The hike is more than the destination, and much of the joy of hiking with a group (whether family or practical strangers) is doing it together, IMHO.

That all said, I've (as we all probably have) hiked with people that have been struggling mightily during a hike, but I have NEVER felt I had to step in and make that decision to call it quits for them. It's not my place. Sure I've altered my speed and sometimes my goals at times, but have never deceided that someone else's hike was "over".

p.s. Coldfeet, you worry too much Find a nice group and go have fun, that's what these mountains are about.