Follow Up Story on Kate Matrosova

[sierra]

I listened to the interview on NPR the other night. Bottom line, if they could have got to her on their first try, they might have saved her, but it was impossible conditions. Even when they found her, it was still tough conditions. Textbook example of not turning around in basically unsurvivable conditions. I've always thought we have access to a double edge sword here in the Whites. A beautiful and amazing testing ground, if you climb here, you can go to other area's with that experience and your good to go. Yet, these small but mighty peaks can also catch you on a bad day and kill you. Kate fell into the latter category. If I had to rate CO and CA conditions against the Presidential range, it's no contest, the PR is the top tier for harsh weather. The only thing the west has on us, is snowfall and avalanche danger.

 

[erugs]

And elevation. Don't forget about altitude problems.

 

[sierra]

And elevation. Don't forget about altitude problems.

And elevation, thank you.

 

[BooZiggy]

That was a nice piece on a tragic, sad story. Sounds like the world lost a very bright light with her passing.

 

[weatherman]

And elevation, thank you.

Yeah, but elevation isn't usually a survival factor here... people who venture out in winter conditions are usually acclimatized enough (eg living here, mostly) to make it a minor factor at most. Other than lightning, I've only run into serious to life threatening conditions in New England, where you can get from safety to all hell breaking loose in a matter of minutes to a few hours at most. With a few exceptions, here it just takes longer to get into trouble, usually, by which time you or your buddy has often thought better of it.

 

[sierra]

Yeah, but elevation isn't usually a survival factor here... people who venture out in winter conditions are usually acclimatized enough (eg living here, mostly) to make it a minor factor at most. Other than lightning, I've only run into serious to life threatening conditions in New England, where you can get from safety to all hell breaking loose in a matter of minutes to a few hours at most. With a few exceptions, here it just takes longer to get into trouble, usually, by which time you or your buddy has often thought better of it.

I agree completely. I think I left out elevation originally because frankly it never bothered me. When I lived out there I trained up to 11k at least 3 times a week, plus 14ers on my days off, so yeah once your acclimated your good to go. Plus like the great Doug Scott once said at a lecture I attended. Smoking and drinking help, your accustomed to suffering and take it in stride.

 

[DayTrip]

Smoking and drinking help, your accustomed to suffering and take it in stride.

That's awesome! I was just watching a YouTube documentary last week about K2 and there was I think a Russian team that was smoking like a pack of Marlboro's a day ON THE MOUNTAIN! I was absolutely floored. One of the guys was saying when they had to hunker down in a storm that they knew the Russians were still there because the cigarette smoke was blowing through their tent. Crazy.

 

[Stan]

Nicotine is a stimulant and any short term benefit should be weighed against the long term detriment. Tobacco was a prized commodity among early trappers, a breed I place at the top of the food chain for long term self sustenance under extremely harsh conditions.

Alcohol, on the other hand, is a depressant and can exacerbate extremely cold conditions by constricting capillaries in the extremities, making them more vulnerable to frostbite.

 

[jniehof]

Alcohol, on the other hand, is a depressant and can exacerbate extremely cold conditions by constricting capillaries in the extremities, making them more vulnerable to frostbite.

Alcohol, like most depressants, is a vasodilator. It will increase blood flow out of the core to the extremities, increasing vulnerability to hypothermia. Potentially decreasing chance of frostbite, other than throwing thermal regulation systems out of whack.

Caffeine and nicotine are vasoconstrictors and can increase risk of frostbite.

 

[Trail Boss]

... Alcohol ... constricting capillaries in the extremities.

See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1841894/?page=1 or skip to the conclusion on the last page.
Alcohol is a vasodilator (expands blood vessels). However, vasoconstriction can occur if the blood-alcohol level is high (observed when they injected alcohol into an artery).


Ah! Beaten to the post while searching for supporting evidence.

 

[Stan]

Thank you jniehof and Trail Boss for correcting my statement about alcohol which was a bit inelegant not quite medically accurate. I would not change my opinion of the impact of alcohol in the cold, however, even though those Russians must know something having experience with both extreme cold and alcohol.

With respect to the article cited by Trail Boss, pay particular attention to the last sentence in the summary on page 277. "Alcohol decreases muscle blood flow."

Here are a couple more links which support my concern:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1510798/?page=13 - see page 105 for a summary

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1703192/?page=9 - see page 403 for start of summary with particular attention to the last paragraph

Finally, here is a summary from a password protected article in DocGuide.com. Some of it is technical but it contains additional information for first aid consideration.

"Cold exposure injuries comprise nonfreezing injuries that include chilblain (aka pernio) and trench, or immersion, foot, as well as freezing injuries that affect core body tissues resulting in hypothermia of peripheral tissues, causing frostnip or frostbite. Frostbite, the most serious peripheral injury, results in tissue necrosis from direct cellular damage and indirect damage secondary to vasospasm and arterial thromboses. The risk of frostbite is influenced by host factors, particularly alcohol use and smoking, and environmental factors, including ambient temperature, duration of exposure, altitude, and wind speed. Rewarming for frostbite should not begin until definitive medical care can be provided to avoid repeated freeze-thaw cycles, as these cause additional tissue necrosis. Rewarming should be rapid and for an affected limb should be performed by submersion in warm water at 104 degrees to 107.6 degrees F (40 degrees to 42 degrees C) for 15 to 30 minutes. Débridement of necrotic tissues is generally delayed until there is a clear demarcation from viable tissues, a process that usually takes from 1 to 3 months from the time of initial exposure. Immediate escharotomy and/or fasciotomy is necessary when circulation is compromised. In addition to the acute injury, frostbite is associated with late sequelae that include altered vasomotor function, neuropathies, joint articular cartilage changes, and, in children, growth defects caused by epiphyseal plate damage."

 

[1SlowHiker]

Nicotine is a stimulant and any short term benefit should be weighed against the long term detriment.

Exactley! Maybe if I hadn't smoked 12 packs/day for 30 years it wouldn't have taken me 14 hrs to do a 9 mile hike Friday. I quit 9 years ago. Too late.

 

[DougPaul]

Nicotine is a stimulant and any short term benefit should be weighed against the long term detriment. Tobacco was a prized commodity among early trappers, a breed I place at the top of the food chain for long term self sustenance under extremely harsh conditions.

Exactley! Maybe if I hadn't smoked 1-2 packs/day for 30 years it wouldn't have taken me 14 hrs to do a 9 mile hike Friday. I quit 9 years ago. Too late.

The carbon monoxide in the smoke also ties up hemoglobin that you might need elsewhere... Even if nicotine is a short-term stimulant, the overall effect may not help athletic performance.

Doug

 

[1SlowHiker]

Exactley! Maybe if I hadn't smoked 12 packs/day for 30 years it wouldn't have taken me 14 hrs to do a 9 mile hike Friday. I quit 9 years ago. Too late.

1-2 packs not 12

 

[Driver8]

Yeah, but elevation isn't usually a survival factor here... people who venture out in winter conditions are usually acclimatized enough (eg living here, mostly) to make it a minor factor at most. Other than lightning, I've only run into serious to life threatening conditions in New England, where you can get from safety to all hell breaking loose in a matter of minutes to a few hours at most. With a few exceptions, here it just takes longer to get into trouble, usually, by which time you or your buddy has often thought better of it.

On the other hand, in the mid-60s, my mother's Denver-based church group, which had successfully summited Longs Peak without incident two years before, got caught in an unexpected blizzard high in the Boulder Field on its north slopes. They had to huddle together in a snow cave until the storm passed. She said she'd never forget how cold her legs felt then, and she developed a fierce fear of heights from that trek.

Weather forecasting was much less accurate then, of course, so sudden, unexpected storms happened more then than now. But the Rockies can deliver terrifically fearsome conditions themselves, though not amid three storm tracks as the Whites are.

In Kate M's case, similarly fierce conditions, probably much worse (mid-winter versus late summer), were well forecasted, she just chose to take them on alone.

 

[erugs]

Have you read "A Lady's Life in the Rockies" which talks about winter around Estes Park and her 1850s climb of Longs Peak? I recommend it.

 

[egilbe]

The conditions will be similar to tonights storm. Hopefully no one is planning on hiking this week up MT Washington.

 

[weatherman]

On the other hand, in the mid-60s, my mother's Denver-based church group, which had successfully summited Longs Peak without incident two years before, got caught in an unexpected blizzard high in the Boulder Field on its north slopes. They had to huddle together in a snow cave until the storm passed. She said she'd never forget how cold her legs felt then, and she developed a fierce fear of heights from that trek.

Weather forecasting was much less accurate then, of course, so sudden, unexpected storms happened more then than now. But the Rockies can deliver terrifically fearsome conditions themselves, though not amid three storm tracks as the Whites are.

In Kate M's case, similarly fierce conditions, probably much worse (mid-winter versus late summer), were well forecasted, she just chose to take them on alone.

That's why I wrote "usually". Longs is uncommonly tricky for a few reasons- northernmost 14er, close to civilization compared to most, very tough footing long before the summit push, possibility to get trapped up high if the weather turns, more than typical exposure, etc. I have not summited it and may never.

 

[sierra]

That's why I wrote "usually". Longs is uncommonly tricky for a few reasons- northernmost 14er, close to civilization compared to most, very tough footing long before the summit push, possibility to get trapped up high if the weather turns, more than typical exposure, etc. I have not summited it and may never.

If you live in Denver and climb high, I would encourage you to try Longs. On a nice day in the summer, with a 200am start and a good forecast, it's such a great climb. I only have one problem with Long's. The people who are not really good on class 3 routes clogging up the route. I just climb around them.