Food When Winter Hiking

[bikehikeskifish]

Perhaps because they contain 2 of the 4 essential food groups: grease, salt, sugar, and ice cream.

Doug

They contain two kid-favorite ingredients - bread and cheese. Clearly you don't have kids, Doug You left out noodles.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

Perhaps because they contain 2 of the 4 essential food groups: grease, salt, sugar, and ice cream.

They contain two kid-favorite ingredients - bread and cheese. Clearly you don't have kids, Doug You left out noodles.

I meant to say "Perhaps because they contain more of 2 of the 4 essential food groups: grease, salt, sugar, and ice cream."

It was intended as a comparison: both mom's and dad's contain bread and cheese and neither (presumably) contains noodles and thus none of these are different. The "real butter" adds fat and likely salt.

Also you don't have to have kids to know that they like bread, cheese, and noodles... Observations of a nephew, a niece, and other peoples' kids is sufficient.


<meta comment>
Besides, this whole tangent is off topic unless the kids eat mom's and/or dad's grilled cheese sandwiches while winter hiking.
</meta comment>

Doug

 

[DayTrip]

DougPaul: I've read that calcium and magnesium are also very important in muscle function and like sodium/potassium they must be consumed in matching ratios for best efficacy/absorption. Have you ever tried supplements for these to complement your electrolyte formula or do you just rely on food sources for other vitamins and elements? I experimented a little with these supplements last year on some of my longer hikes and it seemed to help with fatigue and soreness. And as far as your electrolyte mix goes do you wait to mix it because it loses its efficacy if you pre-mix too far in advance? Can't you just shake the bottle prior to drinking or does something happen to the mixture?

 

[DougPaul]

DougPaul: I've read that calcium and magnesium are also very important in muscle function and like sodium/potassium they must be consumed in matching ratios for best efficacy/absorption. Have you ever tried supplements for these to complement your electrolyte formula or do you just rely on food sources for other vitamins and elements? I experimented a little with these supplements last year on some of my longer hikes and it seemed to help with fatigue and soreness. And as far as your electrolyte mix goes do you wait to mix it because it loses its efficacy if you pre-mix too far in advance? Can't you just shake the bottle prior to drinking or does something happen to the mixture?

First of all, I am not a biochemist or nutritionist. The following is my understanding and may or may not be correct:

* Calcium is important, but it is buffered in the short term by your bones.
* I don't know about the need for short-term replacement of magnesium during exercise.
* Some commercial electrolytes contain calcium and magnesium and some contain neither.

I personally just rely on food sources for calcium and magnesium (and other minerals). You might also take a multivitamin (normal dose) when hiking if you are worried.

This topic was discussed in the thread with the recipe*--I just use Morton Lite Salt (NaCl + KCl) and table sugar (sucrose) and it works for me. You can add whatever else you want.
* Please read it if you have not done so already--it may answer some of your questions. http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?4914-Long-distance-nutrition

My mix dissolves pretty quickly and is chemically stable. I typically dissolve it the morning just before the hike or just before use. The only issue is that it is a good growth medium for bacteria (this is pretty much true of any electrolyte drink) so I wouldn't dissolve it too far in advance unless I can refrigerate it.

BTW, I just found an online copy of the Kelly Cordes article referenced in the above thread: http://www.mielu.ro/munte/articole/hidratare.html

Doug

 

[Raven]

Experiment

So before hiking Mount Madison yesterday, I opted to try something different. Instead of the typical English muffin with PB and banana on the side, I got the "hungry man's" breakfast. 2 plate sized pancakes, three sausage links the size of missiles, toast, potatoes, and a pile of scrambled eggs that actually had height to it. I ate a little less than half of what was in my trough and then put on my pack.

I felt sluggish, slow, low on energy, and heavy of foot. I didn't touch my food for a while before needing a carb boost eventually. Normally I eat frequently on a hike often while walking and usually in 200 cal blocks. I never feel full on or before a hike, nor do I before anything else I consider an athletic endeavor. Next time will be back to my normal routine but I thought in light of this thread, I'd try to morning lard-load and see how it worked. For me, not well. To each his own. Obviously everyone is different.

Regarding electrolytes, I worry only about potassium since I get other electrolytes without having to consider their intake. Coconut water is the only thing I have actually noticed a physiological difference with. That difference shows up on day two for me of hard hiking (northern Pressies or equivalent) where muscle fatigue is without question delayed for me over days I do not use it. I hydrate well in the days prior as well. FYI: Raisins also have a substantial amount of potassium. Cost is a factor so I pick and choose trips to make the investment for coconut water ($3/quart).

Happy eating!

 

[Kevin Rooney]

So before hiking Mount Madison yesterday, I opted to try something different.

About how long between your big breakfast and beginning the hike?

 

[DayTrip]

Lot of interesting reading on the referenced links. I've done some serious reading on this topic the past week or so on a variety of scientific and endurance sport sites. I think a lot of what you all have posted to be accurate with some exceptions (of course everybody's body and metabolism is different).

One interesting thing I've read on many nutrition sites is the whole notion of "carb loading". This is quite a misnomer. Most people think this means pounding buttloads of pasta, potatoes, rice and other carbs down their gullets for massive calorie counts. What it actually is supposed to mean is consuming a large PERCENTAGE of your calorie intake as carbs, good quality carbs (like vegetables, whole grains and others) and avoiding fat and sugars prior to the endurance event. Cells only hold so much glycogen and eating more calories than your body needs just gets turned into fat storage. You can't build up a massive carb reserve to use all day. You have to keep topping it off as you go. You can't put 80 gallons of gas in your car for a long drive if you only have a 10 gallon tank. Body is the same. I think the "big breakfast" and the huge carb loading meals are a prescription for sluggish performance. And it is also impossible to consume the amount of calories you are expending during these activities and to try to is very counterproductive an unhealthy. I forget if it was this thread or another citing the high volume of calories consumed hiking/skiing but that they didn't eat nearly that much. You can't. (And at least in my case I have a healthy...er...."reserve" of body fat to draw on as needed. I almost never lose weight hiking)

The other thing I've found on more detailed nutrition sites is that the body only starts drawing on fats for fuels after several hours of sustained exercise once glycogen levels are depleted. The body also prefers stored body fat over other sources for low heart rate activities and it craves more and more carbs as the intensity of the exercise increases. To DougPaul's point the protein requirements don't change much (5-15% regardless of activity level according to one very detailed discussion I read online). So I think everyone's suggestion to eat a little bit more often is probably the way to go.

Surprised no one mentioned caffeine either - nature's best "energy drink" when properly utilized. I realize it is a diuretic, which can be counter productive, but it can provide a noticeable improvement in performance and alertness (at least it does for me but I find myself to be very caffeine sensitive). One of the things I experimented with on my longer hikes this summer (the Bonds, Owlhead and others) was carrying a small container of black unsweetened ice coffee. At certain points I would drink 4-6 oz with a small meal and it provided a very noticeable boost to my energy levels. After the Bonds this summer I stopped at the old Wilderness Trail junction (where the Bondcliff Trail used to start) had some iced coffee and a roast beef/spinach/pita wrap and I practically ran the last 4 miles out (even after 16+ miles of walking), catching and passing people that were as far as 1/2 mile ahead of me on the Lincoln Woods Trail. I don't drink coffee every day so I try to utilize as a performance enhancer when I can and feel it provides a major boost to performance and alertness, in moderation and timed properly. I've read articles suggesting caffeine can boost your metabolism as much as 17% so I assume this helps speed nutrients you are consuming into the body for usage. A lot of exercise sites suggest a small cup of black coffee prior to exercise to boost the benefits. I suppose indirectly everyone's use of chocolate may be contributing to this as well. Most milk and dark chocolate has significant quantities of caffeine in it. So the coffee may be redundant and a bad idea to combine with coffee depending on the type of foods you are eating.

Thanks to everyone for all the detailed info and suggestions. I think I have a pretty good idea about how I am going to tweak my food list now.

 

[jfb]

The other thing I've found on more detailed nutrition sites is that the body only starts drawing on fats for fuels after several hours of sustained exercise once glycogen levels are depleted.

That might depend on the intensity of the exercise. You might enjoy this link.

 

[DougPaul]

So before hiking Mount Madison yesterday, I opted to try something different. Instead of the typical English muffin with PB and banana on the side, I got the "hungry man's" breakfast.

Eating a large meal immediately before or during exercise is generally contraindicated. The demands of digestion compete with the demands of exercise.

On the other hand, eating a large meal high in carbs the day before (ie carbo loading: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbohydrate_loading ) is standard practice for endurance athletes and should work for hikers. However, it must be completely digested before the exercise to have the best effect.

Eating small amounts frequently just before and during the exercise works better for me (and it appears for you and most others too).

Regarding electrolytes, I worry only about potassium since I get other electrolytes without having to consider their intake.

I think how you get the electrolytes is less important than that you get them. Dissolving them in one's drinking water simply automatically meters out appropriate amounts assuming that you drink appropriate amounts of water. Overall, I view it as getting my baseline needs (and fuel calories) from food and my additional electrolyte requirements required by the activity from my drink.

Coconut water is the only thing I have actually noticed a physiological difference with.

An analysis of coconut water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_water) shows that the primary ingredients are water, 37 grams/liter of carbohydrate (mostly sugars), and 2500 mg/liter of potassium. No sodium is listed.

I haven't researched the use of pure (or high) potassium supplements during exercise, so I have no opinion on their use. However, 2500 mg/liter seems like a pretty high concentration--I would dilute it by mixing with water (either in the bottle or in the stomach). For comparison, the Gookinaid formula described in http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?4914-Long-distance-nutrition lists 426 mg/liter and my formula contains 350 mg/liter. (Again, I have no professional qualifications in this field, so my opinions may or may not be correct. Use at your own risk.)

It may be worth noting that you can also buy pure food-grade potassium (as potassium chloride, I think) at the grocery store. (It is sold as a salt substitute.) And as you note, there are foods which are high in potassium.


Bottom line: whatever keeps you safe, comfortable, and happy is good. But different people may have different needs.

Doug

 

[DayTrip]

I wasn't suggesting the body used no fat or no carbs, just that the %'s vary (i.e at low levels it ma use say 35% carbs but as intensity maxes out it might be 65% carbs or whatever). I wish I could find the link to the site I took the notes from. It was very detailed. That is a great link too! Will read in detail after the football games today! Thanks.

 

[DMOutdoors]

My favorites:
Reese's Peanut Butter Fast Break Bars, they come in two sizes. Snickers also.
Power Bar Protein plus vanilla - Its softer, and much less chewy than the others.
As Tomcat suggests, you have to put bars in your pocket or do something to make them reasonable to eat if its that cold.

Nutter Butters or Vienna fingers vanilla cookies are among my favorite non-freezable food. Mix that with a sip of slushy Gatorade and I'm good to go for a while!

Also, I like the Slim Jims with cheese combo packs or some cut up pieces of pepperoni.
I've also been practicing with an Esbit emergency stove with small aluminum pan for making some quick instant hot chocolate on certain hikes.
I bring a Gatorade to supplement my water, and usually leave it in its plastic container. If my water is frozen, there's a chance the Gatorade might not be, and finding a way to put it in the middle of your pack will help.

Good to read all of the other suggestions!

 

[John H Swanson]

) It may be worth noting that you can also buy pure food-grade potassium (as potassium chloride, I think) at the grocery store. (It is sold as a salt substitute.) And as you note, there are foods which are high in potassium. Bottom line: whatever keeps you safe, comfortable, and happy is good. But different people may have different needs. Doug

80 mg Potassium tablets are sold OTC at the drug store. Your lite salt is probably less expensive if the ratio is ok for the user

Btw I have a commercial electrolyte replacement tab that has 40 mg potassium some calcium and some magnesium but no sodium. Never used that one...

 

[Raven]

About how long between your big breakfast and beginning the hike?

I was on trail pretty close to 8:30 and was eating by 7:00, done before 7:30, so 1-1.5 hours.

 

[Raven]

An analysis of coconut water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_water) shows that the primary ingredients are water, 37 grams/liter of carbohydrate (mostly sugars), and 2500 mg/liter of potassium. No sodium is listed.

I haven't researched the use of pure (or high) potassium supplements during exercise, so I have no opinion on their use. However, 2500 mg/liter seems like a pretty high concentration--I would dilute it by mixing with water (either in the bottle or in the stomach). For comparison, the Gookinaid formula described in http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?4914-Long-distance-nutrition lists 426 mg/liter and my formula contains 350 mg/liter. (Again, I have no professional qualifications in this field, so my opinions may or may not be correct. Use at your own risk.)

It may be worth noting that you can also buy pure food-grade potassium (as potassium chloride, I think) at the grocery store. (It is sold as a salt substitute.) And as you note, there are foods which are high in potassium.

Doug

The brand I have now (Trader Joe's) has 1800 mg potassium/Liter and 40 g sugar, but some of the more expensive brands may be a little higher as I recall. I've compared them in the past. Goya is cheapest generally and hides in cans in the Mexican food aisle, not with the other brands usually. It's higher in sugar (62 g/Liter) than the others but this may be advantageous when used while hiking. I often dilute it 50/50 or even 2:1 (more water).

I also have the "No-Salt" you are describing above which is by far the most economical route to potassium hydration IMO. I am not a dietician. I have not done an "experiment" with this yet but would like to try it out. Winter is a good time to test leg fatigue/recovery as a function of potassium intake. To compare, a teaspoon of No-salt provides 2600 mg of K, a little more than the number you saw for coconut water per liter (2500 mg). Much cheaper than $3. I will test the No-Salt this winter and see if I notice a difference.

 

[sierra]

In regards to salt intake, Ive never worried about it, Im surprised to hear its such a concern. Anywho, I do not eat before a hike at all. I start hiking and at 30 or 45 minutes, I have a Gel Pac. I consume 3 Gel pacs to get to a 3 hr summit. I eat my first food on the summit, ussaully a cliff bar. I then stuff a ziplock bag of Jerkey in my pocket and eat on the descent. I do try to eat Pasta the night before, Ive been doing that for years. Coffee, oh yeah, I drink on average 32 to 40 ozs on the way to the trailhead, after the hike coffee is the first thing I go for. Then I try to eat protien within 1 hour of finishing to promote muscle recovery, although the Jerkey kicks starts this process before Im off the trail. Water intake for a 6 hour hike, 32 ozs in winter, 50 or more in summer.

 

[DougPaul]

80 mg Potassium tablets are sold OTC at the drug store. Your lite salt is probably less expensive if the ratio is ok for the user

You may be confusing two separate products--this is what is sitting in my kitchen cabinet:
* Morton Lite Salt: 290mg Sodium + 350mg Potassium in a 1/4 tsp (1.4g) serving
* NoSalt: 650mg Potassium in a 1/4 tsp (1.3g) serving

There is no price tag on the NoSalt, but the Lite Salt was US$1.39 for 11 oz (222 servings per container) which comes to .6 cents/serving. I suspect the price on the NoSalt (also 11 oz) was similar...

Not sure what a 5lb (2268 g) bag of sugar (sucrose) costs, so I'll assume $3. I use 1 heaping tsp (22g measured, ~3 cents) in my drink and 1/4 tsp Lite Salt, so that comes to 3.6 cents/liter for my electrolyte drink...

The hype for my drink is free...

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

In regards to salt intake, Ive never worried about it, Im surprised to hear its such a concern

People vary in how much they sweat and how much salt (and other electrolytes) are in their sweat. Individuals also adapt to the current conditions (reportedly takes a week or so) so they also change over time.

For instance, I have a friend who sweats very little and doesn't use supplemental electrolytes. I, on the other hand, sweat a lot and do far better if I take supplemental electrolytes.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

One interesting thing I've read on many nutrition sites is the whole notion of "carb loading". This is quite a misnomer. Most people think this means pounding buttloads of pasta, potatoes, rice and other carbs down their gullets for massive calorie counts. What it actually is supposed to mean is consuming a large PERCENTAGE of your calorie intake as carbs, good quality carbs (like vegetables, whole grains and others) and avoiding fat and sugars prior to the endurance event. Cells only hold so much glycogen and eating more calories than your body needs just gets turned into fat storage. You can't build up a massive carb reserve to use all day. You have to keep topping it off as you go. You can't put 80 gallons of gas in your car for a long drive if you only have a 10 gallon tank. Body is the same.

My understanding of carbo loading is somewhat different.

The body normal stores about 2000 cal of glycogen in the muscles and liver. Carbo loading (or also known as glycogen loading) uses a process to store a greater than normal amount of glycogen in the muscles. The process is 1) exercise heavily to exhaust the glycogen supply followed by 2) a period of reduced activity while eating a high carbohydrate diet which causes a greater than normal uptake of glycogen in the muscles. This larger-than-normal supply of glycogen is then available for a big push (eg a long race). Ref: Arnie Baker, MD, "Bicycling Medicine", Fireside, New York, 1998, pp 10-11.

The other thing I've found on more detailed nutrition sites is that the body only starts drawing on fats for fuels after several hours of sustained exercise once glycogen levels are depleted. The body also prefers stored body fat over other sources for low heart rate activities and it craves more and more carbs as the intensity of the exercise increases.

I wasn't suggesting the body used no fat or no carbs, just that the %'s vary (i.e at low levels it ma use say 35% carbs but as intensity maxes out it might be 65% carbs or whatever). I wish I could find the link to the site I took the notes from. It was very detailed. That is a great link too! Will read in detail after the football games today! Thanks.

Fat metabolism is relatively constant across a wide range of activity levels. (In contrast, the glycogen metabolism varies highly with the activity activity level.) Thus:
* low activity level: medium fat burn rate, low glycogen burn rate = high percentage fat burn rate
* high activity level: medium fat burn rate, high glycogen burn rate = low percentage fat burn rate
So the percentages alone are misleading--you still burn fats at essentially the same rate across activity levels.

Since your glycogen stores are limited (~2000 cal) and your fat stores are much larger (~50000 cal), increasing ones endurance requires one to increase one's level of fat burning. This is done by large amounts of low-intensity (sub-aerobic threshold*) training. (Cyclists call this Long Slow Distance or LSD**.) Long easy hikes or walks would do it for hikers.

Ref: Arnie Baker, MD, "Bicycling Medicine", Fireside, New York, 1998,

As usual, this has been discussed in a previous thread: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?30417-Nutrition-question-for-long-day-hike Lots of jokey banter, but there is some real information hidden in the noise.

* An easy way to determine if you are below your aerobic threshold is to talk. If you can talk easily and conversationally without gasping you are below your aerobic threshold. If you have to speak in short bursts between gasps you are above your aerobic threshold.

** Save the jokes: they were worn out in http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?30417-Nutrition-question-for-long-day-hike

Surprised no one mentioned caffeine either - nature's best "energy drink" when properly utilized. I realize it is a diuretic, which can be counter productive, but it can provide a noticeable improvement in performance and alertness (at least it does for me but I find myself to be very caffeine sensitive).

Caffeine is a stimulant and is not a source of energy (ie has no calories). However, it has been shown to improve athletic performance.

The diuretic aspect is a myth (as shown by comparisons to other drinks). If you drink enough of anything containing water you will have to urinate to get rid of the excess water.

Doug

 

[Kevin Rooney]

In past threads a hiker named Pete would describe his drinking olive oil - straight from the bottle - as one of his dietary mainstays while hiking. Among other things, he commuted to/from Canada for his hiking in the ADK's on his bike, so he had a high level of credibility, at least for me. While we use olive oil exclusively in cooking, I'd have a hard time chugging it on the trail. YMMV, and obviously his did.

 

[Neil]

I'm a little late on this thread but one thing I notice on these types of "what do you eat" threads is that humans are clearly omnivores and as long as you eat something your body will be able to digest, process and utilize it.
Beyond that, most of the sports and performance based nutritional info widely available in so many really excellent books and scientific studies is only partly related to hiking IMO. We hikers perform at a much lower percent of our maximum compared to runners and other endurance athletes and as such the ratio of fat to carb burning is probably skewed towards fat, which is a good thing because it conserves that precious glycogen, which is in short supply.

I have experimented with just about everything over the years and honestly can't say I notice a big difference between one form of food over another in spite of what the research studies show. One thing I believe in is eating lots, period. I am currently experimenting with lots of table sugar in my drinks, which include espresso coffee. Also, my reading has led me to consume a lot more protein than before especially beginning at the half-way point of say, a 12 hour outing. (in the form of home-made protein drink laced with sugar and other goodies- winter and summer) Since doing that I feel that I'm in much better shape later on in the day. Now, it could just be that I'm in better conditioning so who really knows?

Re: electrolytes and hydration. I recommend a close reading of Tim Noakes book, Waterlogged. It has changed my approach to hydration and electrolyte replenishment. Long story short: I drink way, way less than before and feel great (have done some "interesting" experiments on myself here too) and have quit adding electrolytes to my water.
Like I say, hiking intensity, at least in my case and I have used a heart rate monitor to verify this, is low enough that fueling strategies can have a very wide effective range.