For you canister stove users...

[Chip]

I am a white gas believer, but a little blurb in the current "Outside" magazine that casually uses "pressurized canisters" and "dangerous" in the same sentence got me searching for some info on said "dangers".
This is a good article I found that discusses how to use canisters more safely and efficiently in winter.
I found it interesting and think it would be helpful to those of you who have gone over to the dark side.

 

[DougPaul]

Generally good article, 2 comments:

* The lower atmospheric pressure at high altitudes lowers the boiling point of the fuels. (The boiling point of a liquid is the temp at which the vapor pressure of the liquid equals the ambient pressure. Generally, the vapor pressure of a liquid is higher at higher temps and lower at lower temps.) Thus cannister stoves can be used at lower temps at higher altitudes. (This is hinted in the article, but gets rather short treatment.)

* Most canister stoves take gas from the space above the liquid and feed it to the burner. (This makes the high vapor pressure components, eg the propane, burn off faster than the lower vapor pressure components.) There is also a canister stove (don't remember the brand and model) which is designed to feed the liquid propane/butane and feed it to the burner. This makes the fuel components burn off at the same rate so that you can burn off all of the fuel in the cold.

Doug

 

[jfb]

The article didn't mention it, but I've heard that placing a canister in a pan of water (not too hot, not too cold) would also help the fuel vaporize.

 

[KayakDan]

Hi..my name is Dan..and..well...I'm a cannister user. Have been for 7 years...year 'round.
I can't help it...I like to eat hot food when I camp in the winter,but I can't deal with white fuel. Watched a fellow kayaker light a picnic table on fire with one of those white fuel contraptions. And then there's the noise. It's like cooking next to a DC-9. I just haven't seen many folks using one,and appear to be in control of the inferno.

In any case,thanks,that was some good info. When you're dealing with any kind of compressed flammable gas,caution should be the top priority.

After you learn all the little tricks,using cannisters in winter isn't all that difficult.
Now if we could just recycle the cannisters...

 

[David Metsky]

Until you need to melt snow, and then that roar is like music to the ears.

-dave-

 

[Rick]

Very Timely - My new MSR Pocket Rocket just came yesterday. I have wanted to get one out for years, but A. They weren't on sale and B. I finally got a $25 REI gift certificate from my company to use on it.
I understand now why my camping gaz cartridges don't fit (damn!!!)

 

[Chip]

The article didn't mention it, but I've heard that placing a canister in a pan of water (not too hot, not too cold) would also help the fuel vaporize.

"A safer, but not nearly as effective method, involves preheating a small amount of water in a pan and then placing the canister and stove in the heated water for the duration of the cooking. The heated water provides some resistance to evaporative cooling and allows the stove to maintain its BTU output much like the copper wire or dead air space created by the aluminum foil. The author uses this technique successfully on a 23 degree (F) March morning in the mountains of Southwest Montana."

This is the article that quote came from.

I don't want to get no fights started in heeya, BUT getting your stove to work on a 23 degree day doesn't seem like much of a victory.

 

[DougPaul]

"A safer, but not nearly as effective method, involves preheating a small amount of water in a pan and then placing the canister and stove in the heated water for the duration of the cooking. The heated water provides some resistance to evaporative cooling and allows the stove to maintain its BTU output much like the copper wire or dead air space created by the aluminum foil. The author uses this technique successfully on a 23 degree (F) March morning in the mountains of Southwest Montana."

This is the article that quote came from.

I don't want to get no fights started in heeya, BUT getting your stove to work on a 23 degree day doesn't seem like much of a victory.

Seems to me that there is a certain chicken-and-egg problem here...

But what would I know--I use an MSR blowtorch.
(BTW, the noise makes it real easy to monitor your stove.)

Doug

 

[nazdarovye]

Until you need to melt snow, and then that roar is like music to the ears.

-dave-

True...though with a winter mix (Primus and Coleman both sell that), I've had no trouble melting snow for water down to about 15 F with that fuel and a SnowPeak stove (not that it couldn't possibly go lower - that's just the lowest I've used it).

 

[DougPaul]

True...though with a winter mix (Primus and Coleman both sell that), I've had no trouble melting snow for water down to about 15C with that fuel and a SnowPeak stove (not that it couldn't possibly go lower - that's just the lowest I've used it).

Melting snow at 15C? I hope that's a typo...
Otherwise, not much of an achievement.

Doug

 

[sleeping bear]

okay- here's one-

My homemade alcohol stove melted snow when white gas stoves wouldn't light, canisters were finnicky, and water was freezing in the tube before it even got to the filter! I'm not sure what the actual temperature was

However, I've since converted to a MSR whisperlite thanks to a nice REI gift certificate. Canister stoves make too much trash!

 

[David Metsky]

I've never had an MSR XGK fail to light or work like the blowtorch that it is. I've used them down to -20 F and I've never seen another stove melt snow like that workhorse. You can't hold a conversation within 20 feet of it, but I can talk once I have my water.

There is absolutely no need to carry something like that in summer, but in winter it's a godsend.

-dave-

 

[Lawn Sale]

A white gas stove not light? Mine lit at -35°F last year in minor winds...any idea as to why it didn't light?

I have a cannister lantern I use for local overnight hikes (1-2 nights), but below -10°F it doesn't want to stay lit.

Good info posted!

[edit] It does sound like a blowtorch though, which stinks if you're trying to be quiet. Also never had a problem with it, but an o-ring did freeze on me and tweak out of position, causing a temporary fuel pump leak. Replaced it with a spare one warmed in my hands and all was well. [/edit]

 

[TomD]

Stoves

I recently used a Primus Micro at Yosemite-around 7K ft. Not sure how cold it was, but it was snowing, so presumably below 32F. It took a bit to get it going with the Piezo lighter on it, but once it fired up, it was fine. I set it on a piece of Ensolite pad sitting on the snow. I wouldn't want to rely on it for a lot of snow melting, but it was fine for one person.

I have a bunch of stoves and various amounts of experience with them. Two stoves that I would rely on are my old Svea 123 white gas stove (about a hundred year old design-no kidding) and my 80's vintage XGK. I bought the XGK because (a) it burns any flammable liquid and (b) I didn't know any better. By that I mean it seemed like a good stove to take to New Zealand, which it turns out it was. Loud, oh yeah. Two modes-full and off, yep that too, but it didn't act up and even a novice like me could get it going with a minimum of drama. I also have a Nova-used it once or twice-it seems a bit fussy and overly complicated, but it supposedly burns anything too and simmers if that matters to you.

A friend of mine swears up and down by his Coleman Expert which uses the Powermax fuel-a propane/butane mix. I think that's all he carries, even in winter.

 

[nazdarovye]

Melting snow at 15C? I hope that's a typo...
Otherwise, not much of an achievement.

Doug

LOL - and I was so proud of myself.

OK - 15 F, and 40+mph winds. I dug a pit for the stove and it was fine. Also used it the other weekend near Carson Pass when we got stuck in a blizzard. Winds even stronger than the other trip, though temperatures were probably just in the 20s. Worked great there as well (this was with Primus Propane/Butane/IsoButane mix fuel).

I have a Whisperlite and an Optimus Nova, too - so nothing against white gas stoves; it's just nice to be able to use the canisters for shorter trips and not mess with the extra weight and fuss of the liquid fuel stoves.

 

[sleeping bear]

A white gas stove not light? Mine lit at -35°F last year in minor winds...any idea as to why it didn't light?

I've had trouble with them on several winter occasions (and summer). Generally, I find the problem to be that the stoves are property of a group, or school and therefore have been abused, or neglected.

On that particular trip, we had both personal and group stoves, all of which were having problems, even after having been taken apart. They may have needed to be better primed, as I think the stoves were having a hard time converting the liquid to a gas.

Now that I have my own white gas stove, I'm curious to see if I run into the same problems, as I think they're mainly caused by neglect/abuse.

 

[DougPaul]

I've had trouble with them on several winter occasions (and summer). Generally, I find the problem to be that the stoves are property of a group, or school and therefore have been abused, or neglected.

On that particular trip, we had both personal and group stoves, all of which were having problems, even after having been taken apart. They may have needed to be better primed, as I think the stoves were having a hard time converting the liquid to a gas.

Sounds like underpriming--probably also getting yellow flare-ups.

Now that I have my own white gas stove, I'm curious to see if I run into the same problems, as I think they're mainly caused by neglect/abuse.

They are easy to maintain--run them on Coleman fuel (or equivalent), occasionally clean the nozzle (the built-in or needle cleaners are generally adequate), change the gaskets every other blue moon, and you will have little trouble. My MSR model G (30yr old predicessor to the XGK) has always worked for me and has never needed to be disassembled.

And prime it adequately--it just takes a few tries to learn. One trick: if the stove is inadequately primed, run it on low until the heat builds up--you can then gradually turn it up.

Doug

 

[jfb]

They may have needed to be better primed, as I think the stoves were having a hard time converting the liquid to a gas.

I like putting a small cotton ball in the priming cup, then squirting several drops of gas on the cotton with an eyedropper. Light the cotton (it should burn with about a 3 inch high flame) and open the valve just before the cotton stops burning.

 

[TomD]

Cleaning the jet

Sleeping Bear, I know some of the new stoves, like my Nova, have a built-in jet cleaner-what MSR calls a "shaker jet" design, I think-the Nova has a tool with a magnet that you rub across the bottom of the stove to clean the jet. I presume it causes something inside it to move around.

My XGK came with a cleaning tool-a small needle mounted in a thin handle.
If you can find one of those, or something similar, that might help sort out a stove that is acting up. As I understand it, the principle behind how most liquid fuel stoves work is very simple: liquid fuel is turned into a mist due to heat and/or pressure and as the mist squirts out the jet, it burns. So, really there aren't too many things to go wrong. My old SVEA 123 for example, doesn't even have a pump like the newer stoves do. Neither do the old Optimus stoves, if I remember right. A clean jet, proper priming, and slowly opening the valve should do the trick.

One other thing-make sure you have clean fuel. I have read that fuel will eventually go bad-probably from oxidation or contamination from moisture. That would also affect the stove's performance.

 

[DougPaul]

As I understand it, the principle behind how most liquid fuel stoves work is very simple: liquid fuel is turned into a mist due to heat and/or pressure and as the mist squirts out the jet, it burns. So, really there aren't too many things to go wrong. My old SVEA 123 for example, doesn't even have a pump like the newer stoves do. Neither do the old Optimus stoves, if I remember right.

Close--the fuel vaporizes in the burner housing or preheating tube and squirts out the jet as vapor. The purpose of priming is to heat the burner housing and preheating tube hot enough so that they fully vaporize the fuel. The yellow flare-ups that you see coming from an inadequately primed stove are due to liquid fuel coming out the jet.

The non-pump gasoline stoves rely on some of the heat getting to the tank and pressurizing it from the heat. (And if the tank overheats, it can vent fuel or explode.) One of the safety features of the MSR (and some other) stoves is that the fuel tank stays cold and does not self-pressurize. You must pump for pressure, but that also allows one to simmer by keeping the tank pressure low.

There is a pump available for both the Svea 123 and Optimus 8R stoves. It is, IMO, an improvment over the original self-pressurizing only design. Makes the stoves easier to use in the cold and easier to prime.

Doug