Frozen Snow, Ropes, & Trust

[blacklab2020]

I am sure there are many different responses and angles that people will have for this question, but this will all depend on experience.

I am at a point where I am starting snow climbing on longer routes. (My brother and I were on the Hotlam Bolam Route on Shasta this past summer and some NE gully climbs this past march).

On Shasta we started climbing early and the snow is of course still frozen. It is easier to rope up before the climbing gets too steep but a fall on frozen neve has irreversible consequences. An arrest would be near impossible and two people tied together would likely tumble/slide...

However this is an easier part of the route 40 degree snow where you want to make some time moving up the mountain and save the technical aspects for where it is needed most. We chose to place gear given our lack of self-arrest practice on questionable snow. (Of course snow an hour after the sun hits it is another story)

Ideally, it would have been better to climb this unroped individually and tie in later. Climb a couple pitches roped up over the icy stuff and then revert to moving unroped again. How do you make transitions easier from unroped to roped on steeper terrain? Could be as simple as chopping a stance and placing the axe in the snow, adding some security while tying in?

When arrests are feasible and the climbing easy, traveling on the same rope with a partner you trust is no problem.

My question to you is how do you handle this transition terrain when things are unforgiving?

 

[giggy]

There is no easy to answer to this... I am no expert but, tend to either really shorten the rope to prevent any extra slack (we did this on mt blanc tacul) or place pickets...

placing pickets takes time and is not always an option... what I have been doing when climbing with folks about the same level or better, is we will switch off leads - this saves time exchanging gear... so leader leads, places, cleaner collects, and then leads next pitch.. saves some time.

at the end of the day, on the terrain your talking about - its a risk (as you know) that we all accept. It really more or less a no fall zone and the chance of a fall is probably pretty small.. so IMO - usually worth the risk.

if going unroped, self belay, self belay, etc...

but yea, you have to trust who your with regardless... this might be a better question for a climbing forum tho...

 

[TCD]

I only have a few experiences with that kind of climbing to draw from. Regarding the transition, anticipation and planning are as important as route finding. The key here is looking ahead, not waiting until you are in a precarious situation where it is difficult to rope up. An analogy from road biking is the anticipatory gear shift. You don't want to wait until you are pushing hard on the pedals to downshift.

 

[Craig]

Ideally, it would have been better to climb this unroped individually and tie in later. Climb a couple pitches roped up over the icy stuff and then revert to moving unroped again.

Exactly.

How do you make transitions easier from unroped to roped on steeper terrain? Could be as simple as chopping a stance and placing the axe in the snow, adding some security while tying in?

Leash to your axe on a separate biner or if using tools, equalize your 2 tools and leash to that.

 

[J.Dub]

Another option -- besides simul-soloing, roped simul-climbing and regular belayed climbing -- is running belays, which might prove useful in this particular situation.

Basically, it's roped simul-climbing, but the leader puts in some gear (pickets, screws, the occasional rock pro, if applicable) as s/he goes, and the second cleans it as s/he follows, some distance behind. At some point, the leader will run out of gear and the second will swap leads, or the leader will stop and allow the second to catch up to pass back the gear. IIRC, FoTH has a section on running belays, if you want more info.

At the end of the day, it's up to you and your partner to determine the best belay method -- which might be none at all -- for the particular climb at the particular time. There may be sections that you previously had simul-soloed that, due to a change in snow/ice/WX/energy conditions, you might now want to climb fully-belayed. Or maybe a section where you might normally climb belayed is facing rockfall/avy danger and needs to be crossed quickly, so you solo it.

IMO, that's one of the cool things about climbing...that you have to figure this stuff out constantly. Climbing safely has as much to do with the mind, in what decisions we make, as it does with physical training and technique.

 

[jfb]

When the terrain is difficult for self arresting yet there is still a possibility of falling, we rope up and climb one at a time with a hip belay. The belay anchor is usually just a mountaineering-type axe with the shaft driven in all the way. We don't use intermediate protection, just run it out the full length of the rope. This method does not slow us down as much as it might seem, we each get a few minutes of rest every 300 feet or so. This method also works well for long, exposed pitches of 3rd or 4th class rock.

 

[leaf]

all good replies so i don't have much to add.. plus i'm no expert either.. but

i will echo that you might want to try to avoid transitioning on 'unforgiveable' terrain. rope up where it's easy.. even if the terrain can be climbed unroped to save from trying to rope up somewhere where it's precarious. while the terrain is easy, shorten the rope up. once things get hairy, do a running belay and switch leads like what's already been said if possible since it's more efficient that way.

i hear ya though on roping up where you feel it's safer to travel unroped in case of a fall.. because with a short rope you'll have no time to react to a partners fall and if you have no protection inbetween, what's the point. nothing good can come out of that.

throw in two pickets, or a picket and an ice axe. anchor in and rope up when it's time.

and oh yeah, practice self-arrest.

there's so many variables in alpine climbing that this is indeed a tough question to answer. but it's all those variables and constant evaluating and re-evaluating, changing to the conditions, that make it so much fun.

 

[sierra]

Ive done a lot of technical climbing and this is a touchy aspect of climbing. My rule of thumb is, unless the belays are fixed, I would rather climb un-roped and trust myself to self arrest, if the terrain is borderline difficult, I would carry my 70cm lowehummingbird and back it up with my 50cm chouinard incorporating fixed webbing from my harness to caribiners that I can tie off to one or both of my axes when needed. I have simoclimbed roped, but I dont like it, anyone can fall, I would not want to be pulled off by someone else nor would I want to pull off someone if I fell due to my own error. IF, I chose to simoclimb roped, I would not use less then 3 pieces of gear between climbers at all times and I mean 3 GOOD pieces, dont underestimate how fast a slideing climber can zipper out snow protection.

 

[Chugach001]

I'm with Sierra, if you are not protected, why would you ever clip in? I just can't find a benefit to offset that risk.

But, your question about transitions; I have used a shortened coil and just clip into a pre-tied figure-8 off your harness. Clip-in, clip-out, pass the coil, move - repeat. Also, protected simul-climbing can be very fast with practice.

If you are taking the step to longer routes, I suggest reading ANAM (Accidents in N. American Mountaineering) every year. You will start seeing the patterns in behavior that lead to accidents. Good luck!

 

[giggy]

I'm with Sierra, if you are not protected, why would you ever clip in? I just can't find a benefit to offset that risk.

I was replying in the context of a glaicer (tho that wasn't the question here after re-reading, but was in my mind that way) - where the climbing isn't hard, but a crevasse fall might be an issue and its worth the risk to climb roped w/o pro if the situation calls for it. But generally, yea - I would not climb roped without tossing at least a solid picket, screw, etc.. b/t people. I was saying shorten the rope as much as possible if there is a section where for whatever reason your not placing pro - to prevent as huge slack build up if a fall did happen.


just didn't want to give the impression, that I am out there climbing out there short-roped without using pro all the time..

 

[leaf]

ditto what gig said. yeah, crevasse fall is in my recent memory.

 

[sierra]

one more note, 2 people on a glacier is dicey, you better be fast to hold someone and be ready to tie off the rope and help if your partner is injured, 3 is better imo for glacier travel ( this is if Im correctly reading that there was 2 of you).

 

[TCD]

Yeah, that's a constant challenge when organizing the party. 3 is ideal for glacier, but 2 is ideal for up the hill. I think Blacklab is talking about up the hill, as opposed to glacier travel.

 

[Craig]

... 2 people on a glacier is dicey, you better be fast to hold someone and be ready to tie off the rope and help if your partner is injured...

If I were holding my partner on a 2 man rope after a crevasse fall, I'd give him 10mins max to scamper up that rope before it would be “touching the void” time.

 

[blacklab2020]

Thanks for the good replies.

I was also curious to see how many people apply simulclimbing techniques to long icy snow fields. I think my climbing partner and I simply need to become more efficient at the transitions between techniques (simulclimbing to unroped and roped to unroped and back and forth) so we feel more comfortable actually applying them given a limited time window.

Agreed on the picket for two roped together. They can be time consuming, but if you're tied in you need something there. We did one picket and axe at each belay with one picket on a 70m pitch.

Glacier travel is a whole other area I am not moving towards right now... "Abandon all hope without three on a rope" is what I have heard... otherwise put all your hope in butterfly knots (not talking about the ones in your stomach)

Accidents in N. American Mountaineering is what got me thinking about the debate between pro on icy snow more versus practicing good technique, balance, and footing. It still amazes me how many people glissade with crampons on. I saw it again on shasta this year.