"Full" Winter Gear?

[DougPaul]

A 'friend' of mine has repeatedly tried to convince me to fill my bladder with a low melting point fluid such as acetone or isopropyl alcohol or even plain gasoline. These would likely remain in liquid state at all times, however, I have long suspected that this would only substitute one problem for a potentially more serious (lethal) one.

Said liquid, even if potable at higher temps could be lethal. If you drink an adequately below 32F liquid, it will freeze your larynx and you will suffocate. This happens every now and then in places like Alaska when someone gets a bottle of whiskey (freezing point well below 32F) out of the cold car and takes a drink before it is adequately warmed up.

I similarly rejected his oft recommended "stainless steel boots in winter" theory. Common sense and a little knowledge of thermal conductivity and toxicity can go a long way.

Besides, stainless steel boots would be anti-ultralight...

Doug

 

[dr_wu002]

Said liquid, even if potable at higher temps could be lethal. If you drink an adequately below 32F liquid, it will freeze your larynx and you will suffocate. This happens every now and then in places like Alaska when someone gets a bottle of whiskey (freezing point well below 32F) out of the cold car and takes a drink before it is adequately warmed up.


Besides, stainless steel boots would be anti-ultralight...

Doug

Doug, I can always count on you to point on the tomfoolery in any one of my schemes! You're absolutely right. Don't drink supercooled liquids!

I used a bladder for about a year. I tried once, on a coolish day, to use it during winter -- I was able to keep it going but it didn't seem worth it. I abandoned using a bladder ever since. Now I have an insulated pounch that I keep my gatorade bottle in. Then I have more filled bottles in my pack. I generally don't have trouble keeping what's in my pack warm enough.

-Dr. Wu

 

[giggy]

A 'friend' of mine has repeatedly tried to convince me to fill my bladder with a low melting point fluid such as acetone or isopropyl alcohol or even plain gasoline. -Dr. Wu

drink gasoline while I piss fire.

 

[Chip]

If you drink an adequately below 32F liquid, it will freeze your larynx and you will suffocate. This happens every now and then in places like Alaska when someone gets a bottle of whiskey (freezing point well below 32F) out of the cold car and takes a drink before it is adequately warmed up.
Doug

Now there's some practical advise you won't get on most bulletin boards. I wonder at what temp the alcohol is deadly, as freezer stored vodka is pretty commonly consumed ? Must be WELL below 32, no ? Good thing I add my winter camping spirits to hot tea.

 

[DougPaul]

Doug, I can always count on you to point on the tomfoolery in any one of my schemes! You're absolutely right. Don't drink supercooled liquids!

Just trying to keep you honest...

I used a bladder for about a year. I tried once, on a coolish day, to use it during winter -- I was able to keep it going but it didn't seem worth it. I abandoned using a bladder ever since. Now I have an insulated pounch that I keep my gatorade bottle in. Then I have more filled bottles in my pack. I generally don't have trouble keeping what's in my pack warm enough.

Bladders are fine for warm weather but are too fragile a system in winter for my taste. You have to watch it carefully and if it fails (freezes), your water becomes difficult to access. I carry a 500ml insulated bottle on my belt (removable to my pack if need be) and one or two 1 liter insulated bottles in my pack.

Doug

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I have, as an experiment, tried dangling a 1L Nalgene in a cozy from various parts of my pack. If it is forward of either hip or on the chest strap, it is annoying. I bump it with my hands, or the poles. It bounces off me with every step.

Bottles are annoying, actually. I love, love, love the hydration bladder.

Do folks just 'deal with it'? Or is there some comfortable, reachable, convenient way to carry? I can just stuff it into the regular bottle pocket in my pack, but it really is a stuff, and the other stuff in the pack tends to expand to fill that space while the bottle is out making it tougher and tougher to put it back.

That said, I had a hydration pack freeze and come disconnected while XC skiing so I understand the reasons not to rely on it

Tim

 

[Quietman]

This discussion brings back the vision of Pete Hickey's way of keeping his hydration system from freezing, thanks to Timmus and her great illustrations

Timmus' take on Pete Hickey's hydration idea

 

[dr_wu002]

Do folks just 'deal with it'? Or is there some comfortable, reachable, convenient way to carry? I can just stuff it into the regular bottle pocket in my pack, but it really is a stuff, and the other stuff in the pack tends to expand to fill that space while the bottle is out making it tougher and tougher to put it back.

? I have an insulated pouch that is attached to the hip area of my pack, on the belt. It doesn't move around and it doesn't get in the way and it's easy to access. In fact, I use the pouch for all seasons -- it's always on my pack now. I store the rest of my liquids (in a container -- not free range) in my pack.

I used a bladder during 2005 but I found that the water would eventually taste horrible. They rec'd that I make a mixture of water and bleach to clean it and that tasted worse and burned my mouth. I stopped using my bladder after a while and went permanently to gatorade bottles.

This discussion brings back the vision of Pete Hickey's way of keeping his hydration system from freezing, thanks to Timmus and her great illustrations

Timmus' take on Pete Hickey's hydration idea

OMG. I had forgotten about that one. Almost pooped my pants when I saw that drawing. Wicked funny. Doug, would it work?

-Dr. Wu

 

[carole]

Or is there some comfortable, reachable, convenient way to carry?

My insulated water jacket (OR brand) has a loop on it. I thread my hip belt through this loop, wrap it and go through the loop again, sliding it as close as possible to the padding on the hip belt. This keeps it at a slight angle; it doesn’t move around, doesn’t affect my arm movement and is easily accessible. Other liquid containers are keep in my pack insulated with socks and my back.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

If I picture you right, your hip area just increased by the width of a bottle in a cozy, right? My hand/arm/poling action would knock into that quite easily... I've tried it.

Maybe I'm not envisioning things properly?

Tim

 

[Tim Seaver]

BladderPhobia

I use a bladder all winter long, and rarely have any problems. As long as the tube is evacuated ( by holding the bare tube above my head for a few seconds), the only place it generally freezes is at the mouthpiece, so I don't even use the mouthpiece, but use the mini-valve for the mouthpiece as a plug, and yank it out to drink. The only time the tube might freeze is if I duck under a blowdown, causing the tube to fill - if this happens, I just tuck the tube in the bladder sleeve against my back where my body heat quickly thaws it, and I am back in business. No big deal. Sometimes I have to smack the tip of the tube against a tree to dislodge small ice chunks, but that is pretty infrequent.

The key to being able to use this method is to not route the tube through any loops on your shoulder strap so that you can completely evacuate the tube. The "insulated" tube sleeves are worthless in all but the mildest conditions.

For me, this system works very well, and has for years, but it isn't for everyone (obviously!)

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I've done what you suggest, Tim, while skiing and it's worked except that one time. Same with riding in the winter. You have to stay diligent about the tube though.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

I have, as an experiment, tried dangling a 1L Nalgene in a cozy from various parts of my pack. If it is forward of either hip or on the chest strap, it is annoying. I bump it with my hands, or the poles. It bounces off me with every step.

I don't dangle the bottle, I carry it in an OR bottle parka. The bottle parka has a strap on the side which carries well on my belt. As needed, I can slide the bottle parka from the front to the side of my hip (depends on where the belt loops on my pants are) as needed. The bottle does not swing around and it is almost as available as an unfrozen bladder.

For skiing, I tend to keep the bottle more in front. Front or side works for hiking unless big step-ups require pushing the bottle to the side.

That said, I had a hydration pack freeze and come disconnected while XC skiing so I understand the reasons not to rely on it

I hope it froze before it became disconnected...

Doug

 

[Tuco]

I use a bladder all winter long, and rarely have any problems. As long as the tube is evacuated ( by holding the bare tube above my head for a few seconds), the only place it generally freezes is at the mouthpiece, so I don't even use the mouthpiece, but use the mini-valve for the mouthpiece as a plug, and yank it out to drink. The only time the tube might freeze is if I duck under a blowdown, causing the tube to fill - if this happens, I just tuck the tube in the bladder sleeve against my back where my body heat quickly thaws it, and I am back in business. No big deal. Sometimes I have to smack the tip of the tube against a tree to dislodge small ice chunks, but that is pretty infrequent.

The key to being able to use this method is to not route the tube through any loops on your shoulder strap so that you can completely evacuate the tube. The "insulated" tube sleeves are worthless in all but the mildest conditions.

For me, this system works very well, and has for years, but it isn't for everyone (obviously!)

Agree with this. Since I drink alot all seasons, I first use the bladder water and if that were to freeze I have my insualted nalgene bottles to go to next. Since I don't totally rely on the bladder, no pressure on its absolute perfect performance. Freezing generally occurs when I don't take the precautions necessary (evacuate as Tim says or put the hose in my coat for warmth). Having easy access to drink early in the hike- during ascent when I drink most- outweighs the risk of freezing for me; and like I said I bring plenty of other water. I don't fill the bladder totally, just enough to use during the early part of the hike until nalgene switchover.

Just my process.......

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I don't dangle the bottle, I carry it in an OR bottle parka. The bottle parka has a strap on the side which carries well on my belt. As needed, I can slide the bottle parka from the front to the side of my hip (depends on where the belt loops on my pants are) as needed. The bottle does not swing around and it is almost as available as an unfrozen bladder.

For skiing, I tend to keep the bottle more in front. Front or side works for hiking unless big step-ups require pushing the bottle to the side.


I hope it froze before it became disconnected...

Doug

No, it got my behind a bit damp. It was my fault. I squeezed the bladder to try and force the ice through the hose but it blew the hose off the bladder instead.

To be clearer on the bottle, I have the EMS brand which have full-length velcro straps (sounds like the OR design.) They don't "dangle" per-se but they still are not comfortable -- they are in the way of taking a full step up if they are in front, and in the way of my arms if to the side I spent an hour one day walking around my yard trying this out. They bounce and slosh and are just plain annoying. Plus, it requires a break in stride to actually take a drink.

I may stick with the bladder after all and carry one Nalgene in a jacket in the pack as a backup.

I guess I should go out in the yard and try again on Saturday.

Tim

 

[carole]

they are in the way of taking a full step up if they are in front, and in the way of my arms if to the side Plus, it requires a break in stride to actually take a drink.

Tim:
By double wrapping my waist strap through the loop twice I can control where I locate the bottle. Too close to the center of the waist it can be in the way of bending over or lifting the leg; too far to the side would interfer with the arm movement. Mind rests on an angle just over the thigh (in front of the hip bone). I have done this for years and it works for me. I have also seen it work for others of different shapes and sizes. But YMMV.

I also often just carry a bottle in the inside pocket of my fleece vest.

Yes, both require a break in stride to drink (or risk pouring it down your front ) but in really cold temps it is better than a bladder.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

Tim:
By double wrapping my waist strap through the loop twice I can control where I locate the bottle.

This I have not tried, but I will.

Tim

 

[DougPaul]

Plus, it requires a break in stride to actually take a drink.

Life is full of compromises, but it beats spilling the water. You might also grab a bite to eat, too.

When skiing, I find that I pretty much have to stop anyhow to prevent falling on my face (and those pesky ski poles are in my hands). When hiking I don't mind the short pause. (In summer I use a similar system with small mouth bottles and don't actually need to break stride.)

There is more than one way to keep water readily available: this system works for some, careful use of a bladder works for others. Either is better than having to take one's pack off.

Doug

 

[Tom Rankin]

This I have not tried, but I will.

Tim

I wear a bottle cozy attached under my waist pack strap.

It works fine as long as you don't run!

In the winter, I sometimes place a bottle in my pants pocket. The pockets in the EMS pants (see photo) are huge. This does impede walking a little, but it will keep a bottle from freezing.

 

[dr_wu002]

Life is full of compromises, but it beats spilling the water. You might also grab a bite to eat, too.

When skiing, I find that I pretty much have to stop anyhow to prevent falling on my face (and those pesky ski poles are in my hands). When hiking I don't mind the short pause. (In summer I use a similar system with small mouth bottles and don't actually need to break stride.)

There is more than one way to keep water readily available: this system works for some, careful use of a bladder works for others. Either is better than having to take one's pack off.

Doug

Doug, since the limiting factor for using a bladder during winter is not the bladder itself but the hose and nozzle which gets the brunt of cold weather exposure plus has a high surface area / volume ratio, what would it take to rig up a little electrically powered insulating tube? Right now you can buy a foam insulator for the tube and nozzle which is basically useless in the cold. However, what if this had toaster wires running through it or possible filled with oil that could be heated to keep the hose and nozzle from freezing.

Another idea that I had was to make an insulated hat that is also a water bottle. The hat would be heavily insulated both for the liquid inside and also your head. The hat would be filled with 1 L of liquid with a modified snorkel designed to deliver it to your mouth. Look at the drawing that I attached.

-Dr. Wu