General Mountaineering Ice Axe vs An Actual Ice Axe

[OldEric]

You are all somewhat correct. Of course that means the inverse is true too. If you want a good stick in solid water ice then nothing will beat a modern tool with a curved shaft and heavily drooped pick. If you want to dry tool (hooking roots in the hiking context) then a pick meant for that will be optimal. I you want to use if for security on steep snow then a long straight shaft will be best. If you were a carpenter and could pick one hammer what would it be? Framing? Finishing?

So what's the answer? Like many things - it depends. The traditional mountaineering ax will be the most versatile - may not be ideal for all applications but "good enough" when accompanied with the right technique (45 years ago I soloed Pinnacle Gully with 2 straight shafted axes. Today I'd want the fanciest tools I could get)..

Actually for the OP's use case I think there is a good argument to be made for having a good modern tool - doesn't have to be top end - could buy one used at the IME consignment shop or where ever. But only deploy it when encountering (relatively) steep ice.

 

[sierra]

Ice axes are designed typically for a specific purpose, it's not just the angle of the pick, but the pick itself. I have a 70cm general axe that has a serrated, but fairly dull pick. It's designed for snow climbing and self belaying up steep snow. I have a 70cm and a 50cm that both have very defined and sharp picks designed to penetrate hard ice. If climbing snow, I would take the first axe, if climbing routes like central gully in Huntington's or Tucks, I would take the latter. In all my years hiking the 4ks with over 1500 4k ascents, I have never carried an ice axe, if I encounter ice, I rely on my crampons to climb it. There are routes that require an ice axe for safety, but I don't classify them as hiking routes, to me, they are climbing routes as the skillset to climb them clearly falls into climbing. Examples, North Slide of Tripyramid, Lions Head winter route, King Ravine headwall, Great Gulf headwall, Lincolns Throat. If you want to get up ice with an ice axe, you need an ice axe designed to climb ice, it's that simple. p.s. you are correct in the length as well, for your height a 70cm would be too short for a general axe. I once bought an old Forrester that was 85 cm long, it had a monstrous pick that was thick, serrated and fairly dull, but man oh man was that axe great for climbing snow, you sank that axe in and you were as safe as a baby in her mothers arms. I soloed the Dana couloir on Mt. Dana (Yosemite 13,003ft) with it, it was perfect as any fall was certainly fatal.

 

[nartreb]

I often carry a general axe in winter, but almost never use it. There are not that many hiking trails in New England where you have the risk of a fall *and* the chance to self-arrest. For the icy, rocky conditions we most often face, something with a better grip would be better. Note that adding a wrist strap (tied it to the head of the axe) makes a huge difference - I strongly recommend it. As others have mentioned, you can also tape up the shaft, but that makes it less useful in "cane" position. On the other hand, most of the icy, rocky sections we worry about are not actually steep enough (at least, not for very long) for an "ice tool" to offer a comfortable grip - you end up crawling. So, it's a debate that probably will never be settled. Carry one or the other, or both? Or a "hybrid"? Pick one depending on the trail and conditions?

If I'm not expecting to need an ice tool, I'm pretty confident I won't really need one. But if I'm not sure whether I *might* need something, then an axe has the chance to be at least a little useful in more kinds of terrain. It's an easy call to turn around or find a detour if you find unexpected vertical ice; the axe is there for the occasional exposed slope where crampons alone might not be reassuring enough.

One final thought: please do NOT use any kind of ice axe to hook onto roots or trunks. This kills the trees! A little patience will usually reveal a suitable crack in the rock or a firm chunk of ice.

 

[OldEric]

One final thought: please do NOT use any kind of ice axe to hook onto roots or trunks. This kills the trees! A little patience will usually reveal a suitable crack in the rock or a firm chunk of ice.

Tough to stick to those pure ethics when you are sketching through a turf topout at the Lake...

 

[DayTrip]

Is there such a thing as a general axe with a removable head where I could carry an angled pick for that rare ice bulge but mostly use the normal type pick for the usual conditions? Is that the kind of thing that could be changed easily in the field or is that something I'd have to decide on in advance and change at home?

Sierra - maybe my 70cm axe being short is part of my not being crazy about it. Not as long as it should be so I am hunching and reaching when I shouldn't be. Maybe I should be looking at another axe - but a longer general purpose one versus an actual tool. Wish there was a place near me that actually carried this sort of thing so I could go check them out in person versus ordering online.

 

[DayTrip]

So, it's a debate that probably will never be settled. .

Yah I think that is where I'm at in my hiking progression now. I've long since settled on the way I like to layer, shelters I prefer, packs, stoves, etc. but have these few lingering "issues" that stay with me season to season and never seem to get resolved in a satisfying manner. I get by OK but I don't like it so I futz over it. That's usually when I ask questions here and see if I can unearth a nugget from someone who had the same frustration and figured out a better way. More often than that I learn something new that helps.

P.S. On the roots and trees I don't use live trees. I'm talking those dead, well worn branches sticking out of the ground from stumps, blowdowns and stuff like that. Use of an actual live tree would only be done if I felt there was a high probability of a dangerous fall and there was no other option available. I believe in LNT but I'm not plunging to my death to adhere to it.

 

[skiguy]

Yah I think that is where I'm at in my hiking progression now. I've long since settled on the way I like to layer, shelters I prefer, packs, stoves, etc. but have these few lingering "issues" that stay with me season to season and never seem to get resolved in a satisfying manner. I get by OK but I don't like it so I futz over it. That's usually when I ask questions here and see if I can unearth a nugget from someone who had the same frustration and figured out a better way. More often than that I learn something new that helps.

P.S. On the roots and trees I don't use live trees. I'm talking those dead, well worn branches sticking out of the ground from stumps, blowdowns and stuff like that. Use of an actual live tree would only be done if I felt there was a high probability of a dangerous fall and there was no other option available. I believe in LNT but I'm not plunging to my death to adhere to it.

Sounds like your comfortable hiking but not climbing with an ice axe. A basic mountaineering and ice climbing course would go a long way to bolster your self-confidence with the latter. A lot of us climbed ice before all the fancy tools came out using non-ridged crampons and a mountaineering axe. Technique is ultimate in that game and learning properly and practicing it is what it takes to feel comfortable.

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

So in an example Like #2 you'd use a general axe to swing it into the ice and pull up on it? I thought that was not recommended considering it has no descending angle on the pick side and could slip out. I thought you were supposed to use a tool with a descending angle for such placements. I agree this is not an all-the time thing but in low snow years with a lot of ice it seems like most routes to tree line have at least a few steep nasty pitches like this and trees aren't always in the right places to grab. Looking at lower risk options for these scenarios. If a general axe would perform in this situation I suppose I'd just stay with what I am doing.

And as an aside, I thought the length of a general mountaineering axe was a function of your height. I seem to remember when I bought mine following a sizing guide that you measured from your hand to the floor for the proper size. I'm 6'3" and I believe 75cm was what I am supposed to use. I think I have a 70cm because I couldn't find a 75cm axe and it feels a bit short to me. It's been almost 10 years since I bought it so the details are foggy.

I am 5’8” and find that my lightweight 75-cm Black Diamond mountaineering ax a good length for me. No fun being hunched over all the time, and easier to self arrest with an ax this length than with a heavy 55-cm ice tool.

 

[sierra]

Is there such a thing as a general axe with a removable head where I could carry an angled pick for that rare ice bulge but mostly use the normal type pick for the usual conditions? Is that the kind of thing that could be changed easily in the field or is that something I'd have to decide on in advance and change at home?

Sierra - maybe my 70cm axe being short is part of my not being crazy about it. Not as long as it should be so I am hunching and reaching when I shouldn't be. Maybe I should be looking at another axe - but a longer general purpose one versus an actual tool. Wish there was a place near me that actually carried this sort of thing so I could go check them out in person versus ordering online.

Ok, here's my recommendation. A good axe for what you describe, would be the Petzel Summit. They just don't do not come in long sizes, because nobody wants a long axe, you might as well be using trekking poles. That being said, this axe will get you up icy routes, I'm just using this model as an example. If you have to bend over that much, you should be relying on your feet, not an ice axe. Ice axes are shorter, because you are typically climbing steep ice and it's in your face or close to it. The recommendation by someone before me about getting Chouinard's book "Climbing Ice" is a very good idea, I had that book and that got me started. Your real issue is a mesh of gear and technique and not using one or both the correct way. I hope that doesn't sound condescending, sure not meant to be, but your lack of skillset cannot be overcome with gear. IME has a ton of consignment gear, it's not close to you, but you could always call them and see what kind of axes they have in the basement. I bought most of my axes there and they were all used.

 

[jfb]

Is there such a thing as a general axe with a removable head where I could carry an angled pick for that rare ice bulge but mostly use the normal type pick for the usual conditions? Is that the kind of thing that could be changed easily in the field or is that something I'd have to decide on in advance and change at home?

Chouinard used to make axes with removable picks and were called X-tools. That's the kind I have, with the classic pick: https://forums.redpointuniversity.com/topic/248/chouinard-ice-axe-history-identification-1969-1989/9

You would not want to change a pick while standing on front points.

 

[sierra]

Chouinard used to make axes with removable picks and were called X-tools. That's the kind I have, with the classic pick: https://forums.redpointuniversity.com/topic/248/chouinard-ice-axe-history-identification-1969-1989/9

You would not want to change a pick while standing on front points.

I lead most of my ice routes with those X-tools.

 

[nartreb]

Chouinard used to make axes with removable picks and were called X-tools. That's the kind I have, with the classic pick: https://forums.redpointuniversity.com/topic/248/chouinard-ice-axe-history-identification-1969-1989/9

You would not want to change a pick while standing on front points.

Not sure about the X-tools, but the tools I have with changeable picks, you need to use a small wrench on very small nuts and/or bolts. Not something I'd recommend any time there's a chance of a part or tool rolling away and getting lost in the snow.


An axe like the BD raven is perfectly fine on New England ice. Make your own wrist strap with cord. Buying used is a very good idea - prices have gone way up

 

[jfb]

I also used one of these: https://verticalarchaeology.com/2014/06/23/forrest-mjollnir-hammer-system/, and eventually upgraded to a BD X-15 hammer.

 

[DayTrip]

Sounds like your comfortable hiking but not climbing with an ice axe. A basic mountaineering and ice climbing course would go a long way to bolster your self-confidence with the latter. A lot of us climbed ice before all the fancy tools came out using non-ridged crampons and a mountaineering axe. Technique is ultimate in that game and learning properly and practicing it is what it takes to feel comfortable.

Yes I'm comfortable in most of the situations I encounter and feel competent with the basic ice axe stuff like self-belay, self arrest, etc. on most of the terrain. It's rare to get to actually practice these techniques in the Northeast for trail hiking though so getting rusty is easy I guess. It's really that specific circumstance I'm describing of the freaky ice bulge on a steep sloping trail. I've gone up and down them many times before but I just feel like I should be doing it a better, safer way and maybe with different equipment. It's been quiet awhile since I "schooled myself" on techniques, etc so I'm probably overdue for a refresher. I had found a lot of excellent videos on YouTube that I probably should have bookmarked.

 

[DayTrip]

I am 5’8” and find that my lightweight 75-cm Black Diamond mountaineering ax a good length for me. No fun being hunched over all the time, and easier to self arrest with an ax this length than with a heavy 55-cm ice tool.

Yah I took my axe out last night and measured it and it is definitely too short. It might even be a 65cm, not a 70cm. At a minimum I need to at least get a properly size general purpose axe.

 

[DayTrip]

I hope that doesn't sound condescending, sure not meant to be, but your lack of skillset cannot be overcome with gear.

Nope. I prefer unfiltered commentary and have never been insulted by anything you've told me no matter how harsh it seemed to be. As I mentioned in another comment utilizing these skills is not something that you have to do much with trail hiking and it's been awhile since I reviewed these skills and no doubt have become rusty. I'm comfortable with the basics of snow field travel. It's the steep ice bulges and scrambles on trails that is the concern/weakness, not just generally icy terrain. I have no issue with that. Pretty specific circumstance I am focusing on.

 

[bignslow]

For climbing the 115 in winter, I was probably 90% in snowshoes, microspikes, or bare boot. In that other 10%, the majority was crampons with trekking poles, in a tiny percentage of other hikes, we carried a whippet which was more than enough to feel secure where a slide might occur.

If you want a ice tool with interchangeable for tech or mountain picks, the BD Venom can swap picks without being a full ice climbing tool https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en_US/product/venom-ice-axe/

Our mountaineering axes were fashion accessories any time we carried them during the W115


EDIT: 60 feet of 6mm (or 7mm?) cord has been way more helpful for navigating challenging areas in the trees

 

[skiguy]

Nope. I prefer unfiltered commentary and have never been insulted by anything you've told me no matter how harsh it seemed to be. As I mentioned in another comment utilizing these skills is not something that you have to do much with trail hiking and it's been awhile since I reviewed these skills and no doubt have become rusty. I'm comfortable with the basics of snow field travel. It's the steep ice bulges and scrambles on trails that is the concern/weakness, not just generally icy terrain. I have no issue with that. Pretty specific circumstance I am focusing on.

Doing some full on ice climbing will help you feel more comfortable with those bulges.

 

[DayTrip]

EDIT: 60 feet of 6mm (or 7mm?) cord has been way more helpful for navigating challenging areas in the trees

Funny you mention that. About 5 years ago I thought that might not be a bad idea and got 50ish feet of rope (I forget the size, type, etc but it was an actual climbing rope of some sort on clearance- not HD nylon stuff. It's out in my garage. I'm pretty sure it was thicker than 6-7mm). I never carried it. Felt like that was over-the-top even for me. It certainly seemed to make sense though.

 

[sierra]

Nope. I prefer unfiltered commentary and have never been insulted by anything you've told me no matter how harsh it seemed to be. As I mentioned in another comment utilizing these skills is not something that you have to do much with trail hiking and it's been awhile since I reviewed these skills and no doubt have become rusty. I'm comfortable with the basics of snow field travel. It's the steep ice bulges and scrambles on trails that is the concern/weakness, not just generally icy terrain. I have no issue with that. Pretty specific circumstance I am focusing on.

While I was hiking with my dog yesterday, I came across a small ice slab blocking the way up a cliff we needed to climb. Your post actually popped into my head. I studied the terrain and using a combination of footwork and a few trees, all while managing my dog and his leash made my way up. It was the same drill on the way down, albeit more carefully, a 60 lb Australian Shepard can be tenacious, lol. I was thinking about your question and it seems that it's not an ice axe that is the issue, although for sure you could use some beta on tools, but I thought technique for climbing the occasional ice bulge would go longer in the beneficial dept. I was able to assess the situation and come up with a reasonable plan to climb the ice without an ice axe. I would consider signing up for a one-day private guide in North Conway, I could recommend a few if you need that. While it's not cheap, learning firsthand a variety of techniques from someone skilled would be worth every penny and the experience you gain would be with you for the rest of your climbing career. I have hired private guides myself in the past, I went private for a few reasons. One, I want the focus on my specific needs, I don't want to stand around waiting for someone to learn what I already know, secondly, you can cover a lot of ground one on one. Anywho, I think mountaineering is a learned skill, I get to go out every week and do, not having that option can increase the learning curve to years. One day of guiding can be the equivalent of years of trial and error. Hope that helps.