help with GPS?

[buckyball1]

I've been a map/compass/altimeter guy for many years, but am considering entering the GPS era. I've searched the forums, but before i take the plunge i feel i could benefit if anyone has time and is kind enough to answer a few questions. I don't want to clutter up the forum, so i think doing this by PM would be best-hope to hear from you-thanks---jim

 

[DougPaul]

Several of us on these forums answer questions on GPSes. As one of these question answers, I prefer that you ask your questions on the public forum. Others may have the same questions and this will allow all to share the answers. And there may be more than one viewpoint among the responders.

The stupidest question is the one not asked.

You have a thread going, so ask away.

Doug

 

[buckyball1]

Several of you have said "ask away on the forum", so....

Background-I'm 61, have hiked fairly seriously for 30 years, almost always hike solo and have done 116, 99/100NEHH, 93/100 ADKHH, etc -don't mean to be immodest, just want to give you an idea of "where" i am. I am reasonably proficient with map/compass/altimeter/visual and have always been "OK" even in tough stuff like ADK Sawtooth range. However,last week i got off line trying to approach Scar West from Loon and got pretty messed up, probably down in that step,thick, confusing terrain NNW of the "3774" peak. I really would have felt sooo much better if i had a few waypoints because it's a long, tuff shot if i had to go for the Kanc over Black...anyway, now i've promised my wife...

I'll use the GPS unit for hiking bushwacks only. I think realistically i am looking at a lower end Garmin (basic yellow or Legend/Vista/Venture series) rather than a 60/76 series, but... Clearly sensitivity and lock are important to me and Garmin seems to be putting the higher sensitivty chips in new Yellow and Venture series shipping after 8/7.

I would be happy just to have a few waypoints of the route i've traveled so i can return safely (perhaps also put in crucial points given me), but also want to consider moderately priced mapping units. I am clueless as to how waypoints are represented (coordinate system) or if you can "transfer" waypoints you set/see on a "yellow" unit to a paper map easily to bnetter visualize where you are.

I see all sizes of memory (even card slots) as you pay more $ and guess these allow one to input topo maps (buy from Garmin?) and if you enter waypoints they'll appear on the units topo and form a track. Is a modest price unit's 8Mb memory enough for a bushwack ala say Scar or Sawtooth range? I don't think i need the electronic compass and aneroid barometer feature, but i am open to suggestions.

If i have a track set from entered waypoints, will the mapping units "show" me the track on a topo on the screen and tell me where i am relative to that track or just tell me which direction i need to go to reach a particular point?

As you can see, i'm not sure what questions to ask, but hope this has given you enough clues to help me with suggestions

many thanks
jim

 

[Neil]

First of all when are you going to finish the ADK HH?

You mentioned your spouse. If you get a RINO gps you can tell her that you carry a 2-way radio with you and that SAR recuers will have a greatly increased chance of finding you (provided you are conscious and have battery juice).

The main thing is to be able to switch the unit on, get a satellite lock, and determine the distance and compass bearing to a waypoint.

Waypoints simplified: every square meter of the planet can be designated by a number, The numbers are called coordinates and designate specific points along the x and y axes of the earth. A set of coordinates is a waypoint. (There are other details to know such as Datum, UTM versus lat/long)

Computers: the computer is half the system IMO and good mapping software a must. I believe this holds true even if you get a non-mapping unit. You click on the map and presto! You have a waypoint that can named by you (or use the computer generated name) and uploaded into your gps. You can print your own map with the waypoint printed right on it so you can see it on your map and in your gps.

Mapping , compass: I started out with a non-mapping unit which did not have an electronic compass. When I received the mapping unit with the compass I found that I really appreciated the compass a lot, more than the mapping.

If you don't really like gadgetry and plan on doing the bulk of your navigating the "old-fashioned" way then get a simple unit. If you really like it and want to upgrade then you just have to invoke the enhanced security features of the model you covet ands it will be under the Christmas tree in due course.

Now to sit back and let "you know who" take over.

 

[DougPaul]

I'll use the GPS unit for hiking bushwacks only. I think realistically i am looking at a lower end Garmin (basic yellow or Legend/Vista/Venture series) rather than a 60/76 series, but... Clearly sensitivity and lock are important to me and Garmin seems to be putting the higher sensitivty chips in new Yellow and Venture series shipping after 8/7.

There is a significant amount of "you get what you pay for" in the Garmin line. If you buy too simple a unit it may not do what you want.

Experience with the SiRFstarIII GPS chipset units (60/76Cx) has shown them to be far superior to the earlier units in maintaining lock under heavy vegetation and reduced skyview. I've seen some user experience reports that suggest that the "high sensitivity" units will work as well in degraded conditions as the SiRFstarIII GPS chipset units.

I would be happy just to have a few waypoints of the route i've traveled so i can return safely (perhaps also put in crucial points given me), but also want to consider moderately priced mapping units. I am clueless as to how waypoints are represented (coordinate system) or if you can "transfer" waypoints you set/see on a "yellow" unit to a paper map easily to bnetter visualize where you are.

The mapping units will show your current location plotted on a background map. They will also show wapoints, routes, and tracks plotted on the background map. A non-mapping unit can vary from displaying only numbers to acting like a mapping unit with a blank background map. (I intentionally waited until good mapping units were available before buying, so I have no personal experience with a non-mapping unit. I have used my GPS without the appropriate map loaded by putting waypoints at the nearby peaks and trailheads and trail junctions.)

IMO, a mapping GPS is far more useful than a non-mapping unit in real-world usage. You can see where you are and transfer it to a paper map by inspection. Compare that to transfering a location in the wind and the rain by reading off numbers and using a ruler or scale to find it on the map. In theory it is doable, in practice, it may not be.

I see all sizes of memory (even card slots) as you pay more $ and guess these allow one to input topo maps (buy from Garmin?) and if you enter waypoints they'll appear on the units topo and form a track. Is a modest price unit's 8Mb memory enough for a bushwack ala say Scar or Sawtooth range?

The memory sizes are only for the maps--the other info is stored elsewhere. I originally bought an 8MB unit and rapidly exchanged it for a 24MB unit (the biggest available at the time) because I couldn't store a big enough area of maps for a trip out west (without a computer). If you get a small unit, you will spend a lot of time loading custom mapsets for each trip. My current GPS has a 2GB memory card--I have both road and topo maps stored for a wide area and don't have to prepare the GPS for individual trips. Everything needed for hiking in the NE is there. (BTW 2GB cards are available for ~$30.)

I don't think i need the electronic compass and aneroid barometer feature, but i am open to suggestions.

The electronic compass is less accurate than a good manual compass and consumes additional power on some models--I basically never use it. (I suppose it is a backup for my manual compasses.) On the other hand, I have stopped carrying my barometric altimeter and use the GPS altimeter. The GPS has an automatic calibration feature that calibrates the barometric altimeter with the GPS altitude. The total effect is an altimeter that is far more accurate than either alone. IMO, the barometric altimeter is worth the price of the sensor package.

If i have a track set from entered waypoints, will the mapping units "show" me the track on a topo on the screen and tell me where i am relative to that track or just tell me which direction i need to go to reach a particular point?

For the topo map, you can make a route by placing a bunch of waypoints and connecting them together into a route. The GPS will display this by drawing straight lines between the waypoints. The GPS will also show you where you are and a mapping unit will plot all of this on the topo for you.

You can also bring up aircraft-like displays that will display a compass rose oriented to your direction of travel with an arrow pointing at the next waypoint.

A simple method of navigating to some waypoint is just to execute a "goto" on it. The GPS will, by any of several varieties of display, show you the direction and distance to the waypoint.

BTW, it is easier to place waypoints and make routes on a computer and download them into the GPS than it is to enter them directly into the GPS. However, one can enter them directly into the GPS in situations where a computer is not available.

As you can see, i'm not sure what questions to ask, but hope this has given you enough clues to help me with suggestions

These are fairly typical beginner's questions. GPSes are complicated but amazing little beasts. After you get one, you should play with it and use it when you do not need it to get used to it. Then if you are in a situation where you really need it, it will be a familiar tool rather than a strange and cryptic device.

My general suggestion is to get a "high sensitivity" mapping GPS that takes memory cards, buy the topo maps (you have to get them from Garmin--there is a new version of topo-USA just out: topo-USA 2008), and get a 2GB memory card. Load the maps in which cover anyplace that you expect to hike regularly (include the area around home and the drive). And then experiment with waypoints, routes, and tracks. You might find it is also very useful for finding unmarked roads, etc.

BTW, Garmin also sells 24K maps for parks and popular hiking areas--topo USA covers the entire US at 100K scale. You might also decide that road maps are useful too...

Also I suggest that you consider the GPS to be an adjunct to map, compass, and altimeter. They all give useful related information and used together, you have multiple checks to help you catch any errors and backup in case any of them fail.

There is lots more info available at http://www.gpsinformation.net and http://edu-observatory.org/gps/gps.html.

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

You mentioned your spouse. If you get a RINO gps you can tell her that you carry a 2-way radio with you and that SAR recuers will have a greatly increased chance of finding you (provided you are conscious and have battery juice).

One should note that it is an FRS radio which frequently only works over rather short ranges in the mountains--frequently less than 1/2mi.

Now to sit back and let "you know who" take over.

Harumph!

Doug

 

[DougPaul]

Hmm...

This seems to be a popular thread title:
There is a thread titled "Help with GPS" from 2005.

Doug

 

[Paradox]

Now to sit back and let "you know who" take over.

I think we need to put some pressure on Garmin to manufacture a "physical therapy" GPS unit. We'll all get together and buy one for Doug. That way he will heal a lot faster, get back out on the trail and away from the keyboard.

I agree with all Doug has said (Neil, I don't use the compass either, prefering my inexpensive Brunton) but I want to offer a different spin on the following:

IMO, a mapping GPS is far more useful than a non-mapping unit in real-world usage. You can see where you are and transfer it to a paper map by inspection. Compare that to transfering a location in the wind and the rain by reading off numbers and using a ruler or scale to find it on the map. In theory it is doable, in practice, it may not be.

I bought my first GPS, a nonmapping eTrex in 2001. I spent a lot of time before hikes with various maps layed out on my dining room table. I would lay out grids and interpolate to get the GPS coordinates for waypoints I was headed to the next day. Then I would input the data into the GPS that night before the hike. I was in my glory. I very much enjoy looking at maps. I had much of the map detail memorized, by the time I hit the trail. The GPS would tell me the distance and the bearing to the next waypoint, and store the data for the route I was taking. Hence, while on the trail, transfering my position to a paper map was trivial.

I no longer do this as the mapping GPS makes the above unnecessary.

 

[sardog1]

If you get a RINO gps you can tell her that you carry a 2-way radio with you and that SAR recuers will have a greatly increased chance of finding you (provided you are conscious and have battery juice).

I don't know of any SAR units that make it a practice to use, or even monitor, the GMRS/FRS frequencies that the Rino operates on. If a reporting party stated that the missing subject is indeed carrying a radio (Rino or not) that uses those frequencies, there's some chance that a SAR team member would bring one along in the field. But folks should never rely on reaching a SAR team that way -- a cell phone in the pack to call 911 is way more likely to help.

If you do know your coordinates, and the datum you're operating on, that would be enormously useful to a SAR response. If you get in the habit of using UTM coordinates instead of lat/lon, you'll be talking the same language as the field teams on the ground. (The helicopter pilots and any salt water SAR response will be using lat/lon. The pilots are getting more accustomed and equipped for UTM.)

 

[Paradox]

If you get in the habit of using UTM coordinates instead of lat/lon, you'll be talking the same language as the field teams on the ground. (The helicopter pilots and any salt water SAR response will be using lat/lon. The pilots are getting more accustomed and equipped for UTM.)

I did not know this, but it seems pretty darned important to me. Thank you.

 

[Paradox]

As I understand it the rightmost digit in the UTM grid is about a meter. Hence you can approximate distances if you know the coordinates of two locations.

 

[arghman]

As I understand it the rightmost digit in the UTM grid is about a meter. Hence you can approximate distances if you know the coordinates of two locations.

the rightmost digit is intended to be a meter; UTM divides the earth's surface into 60 smaller sections, & then projects a square grid onto each them, so as long as you're within the same UTM zone, the math works out fairly easily.

Just don't hike anywhere near the section boundary.

 

[Neil]

I don't know of any SAR units that make it a practice to use, or even monitor, the GMRS/FRS frequencies that the Rino operates on. If a reporting party stated that the missing subject is indeed carrying a radio (Rino or not) that uses those frequencies, there's some chance that a SAR team member would bring one along in the field. But folks should never rely on reaching a SAR team that way -- a cell phone in the pack to call 911 is way more likely to help.

If you do know your coordinates, and the datum you're operating on, that would be enormously useful to a SAR response. If you get in the habit of using UTM coordinates instead of lat/lon, you'll be talking the same language as the field teams on the ground. (The helicopter pilots and any salt water SAR response will be using lat/lon. The pilots are getting more accustomed and equipped for UTM.)

What I have done for solo whacks is to leave a written detail and jpeg of my route on the PC's desktop. If I don't make it out my wife has a phone number and can offer to email the jpeg along with the info that I have a radio and will switch it to a GMRS channel which in my unit boasts a 5-10 mile range. Let's say it only gets a range of 2 miles. That would still be better than a fox whistle. Needless to say I stick close to my planned route.

I was replying tongue in cheek to Buckeyball but since I actually have the RINO I figure I might as well make the info available just in case.

 

[DougPaul]

What I have done for solo whacks is to leave a written detail and jpeg of my route on the PC's desktop. If I don't make it out my wife has a phone number and can offer to email the jpeg along with the info that I have a radio and will switch it to a GMRS channel which in my unit boasts a 5-10 mile range. Let's say it only gets a range of 2 miles. That would still be better than a fox whistle. Needless to say I stick close to my planned route.

Expect to get those sort of ranges only if you have direct line-of-sight. And be happy if you get 2 miles. Range in trees and terrain may not even be 1/4 mile. GMRS requires a license unless it is a life-or-death situation. Also the transmitter uses far more power than the GPS, so every time you hit the transmit button you are significantly reducing your GPS run time.

I was replying tongue in cheek to Buckeyball but since I actually have the RINO I figure I might as well make the info available just in case.

IMO, the Rino line is intended to be used to coodinate movements of a relatively close-spaced party, all of whom are carrying Rinos. It probably works quite well for that purpose. If this is what you want, by all means, consider buying some--you will need at least 2 within the party because the special features only work Rino-to-Rino.

Also if you just want FRS radios for emergencies or communication within a party, you can buy an adequate pair of transceivers for $25-30. The only thing extra that the Rino gives is the automatic transmission and display of the locations of all party members.

Doug

 

[arghman]

IMO, the Rino line is intended to be used to coodinate movements of a relatively close-spaced party, all of whom are carrying Rinos. It probably works quite well for that purpose.

Also if you just want FRS radios for emergencies or communication within a party, you can buy an adequate pair of transceivers for $25-30. The only thing extra that the Rino gives is the automatic transmission and display of the locations of all party members.

Not quite true -- my friend & I used a Rino one afternoon when we were in the Phillips Brook backcountry. The really neat thing about the Rinos is that essentially they include a modem for transmitting waypoint data over the radio. Any waypoint you create, you can transmit over the radio to someone else. So if you want to meet up at a particular location, you can create a waypoint for where you want to go, and send it to the other people. This particular instance, I got stung by a yellowjacket and separated from my friend; it was very hard to hear him over the walkie-talkie (not sure if it was static or if it was the roar of the brook in the background) but very easy to send a waypoint called MEETHERE.

 

[Neil]

Expect to get those sort of ranges only if you have direct line-of-sight. And be happy if you get 2 miles. Range in trees and terrain may not even be 1/4 mile. GMRS requires a license unless it is a life-or-death situation. Also the transmitter uses far more power than the GPS, so every time you hit the transmit button you are significantly reducing your GPS run time.

Interestingly enough, when in the mountains I sometimes hit "scan" on my radio. I usually pick up chatter on the GMRS channels. It's clear from the nature of the chatter that I'm at least 5 miles away, if not more.

But poor Buckeyball certainly didn't want to see his thread drift off like this. Maybe that's why he wanted to use PM's.

 

[DougPaul]

Interestingly enough, when in the mountains I sometimes hit "scan" on my radio. I usually pick up chatter on the GMRS channels. It's clear from the nature of the chatter that I'm at least 5 miles away, if not more.

Haven't checked the regs, but I'll bet a GMRS station can use more power than an inexpensive handheld and can have an elevated antenna. IIRC, repeaters are also legal.

But poor Buckeyball certainly didn't want to see his thread drift off like this. Maybe that's why he wanted to use PM's.

Perhaps he also got a broader set of replies. Drift happens. And if he was considering a Rino, he now has a more complete set of pros and cons.


Personal note:
I have gotten a number of PMed GPS questions and I usually ask that they be posted to a public forum and then reply in the forum. Many of the questions, particularly beginner's questions have been asked many times and will be asked many times more. Hopefully having the discussion in a public form will be more efficient and searchable.

Doug

 

[sardog1]

The really neat thing about the Rinos is that essentially they include a modem for transmitting waypoint data over the radio. Any waypoint you create, you can transmit over the radio to someone else. So if you want to meet up at a particular location, you can create a waypoint for where you want to go, and send it to the other people. This particular instance, I got stung by a yellowjacket and separated from my friend; it was very hard to hear him over the walkie-talkie (not sure if it was static or if it was the roar of the brook in the background) but very easy to send a waypoint called MEETHERE.

The upper end Rino units can query all other Rinos within range and retrieve their location, without any action by the other units' operators to transmit. (Those other units must of course be turned on and receiving adequate satellite signals.)

For the last few years I've recommended them for two circumstances -- (1) finding a party member who's overdue from a medical or other emergency, and (2) finding your kids at the ski slopes. I once sold a set for the first circumstance to a diabetic hunter. This week, I finally met a husband and wife who use it precisely for the second reason.

 

[Neil]

Haven't checked the regs, but I'll bet a GMRS station can use more power than an inexpensive handheld and can have an elevated antenna. IIRC, repeaters are also legal.

Right. I never though of that.

The things you learn via thread drift.

 

[michaelb]

I have garmin geko 301, which is nonmapping. I like it is because it is so light and small I don't mind carrying it on all my trips, particularly for skiing and snowshoeing in the winter. It fits in a pocket. It makes a great bike computer as well. Size and weight matter to me, and the rhinos and other units although useful are really big and bulky.

Although having maps on the gps would be nice, since I also like to go into canada, that was an extra $200 on top of the gps ($100 each for the garmin maps for the US and Canada). I think topo maps at home on the computer are more important than on the GPS, for trip planning and waypoints and routes, so that is another additional expense (I have National geo topo for the NE, and use free topos for other areas, and bought the topos for quebec as well). Having topo maps on the computer let you mark waypoints on the map and upload them to the GPS easily, so that to me is an essential aspect of the use of a GPS (and exactly what you are thinking you will do).

I think sensitivity of the GPS is the most important thing, particularly below treeline, so get a unit with the new sensors for sure. My geko will lose signal at times if in a pocket in trees on steep slopes.

The need for an electronic compass raises an important point for consideration. A GPS without one does not know which way it is "pointing". You have to be moving, or pointing it correctly in the direction of travel, for it to orient properly. If you stop, and sit down sideways from your direction of travel, and pull out your GPS to check it, your maps will not be oriented correctly and will also be facing "sideways". The few times I have gotten disoriented by my GPS has been when I have forgotten this key fact and it was pointing in some unexpected direction. The electronic compass allows the unit to orient itself when not moving, so once that kicks in, the maps will orient correctly based on the compass. I am not sure about battery drain and the electronic compass, so I have been lately experimenting with it off.

If the compass is optional though, I find the altimeter to be very useful, most of the time just knowing my altitude accurately is more than enough to let me know where I am.

So if you have the money for the maps and the GPS, a mapping GPS will work great. But getting a simple one without maps, with the new chipset, that you can hook up to your computer for up and downloading waypoints and routes, will also do what you what and do it well.