Hikers on Lafayette

[SherpaKroto]

CaptCaper: let's not second guess. This is not the forum to do so. None of us were there, and don't know how we would have fared.
I had an experience on King Ravine the day after Thanksgiving in 1978 that I will never forget. In a matter of minutes (yes, minutes), the ceiling dropped, heavy snow started falling, and a relative calm turned into the worst conditions I've ever been in. We were pinned on the upper King Ravine wall with no hope of descending, and 200 feet or so to the ridgeline. We were lucky to have survived. To this day, other than rechecking one of my climbing partners gear before leaving (how many of us do that?), I don't feel we did anything "wrong", and did most things right. In any event, we all survived, but one had severe frostbite on 3 fingers and 2 toes (almost lost one of them).

In any event, it's not time to criticize on this sad event. It does nothing for the Cox's, Ken, Jaytrek or anyone else or the friends and family they leave behind.

 

[dave.m]

Following the track back I would have pushed down to treeline. It would have been unpleasant but a couple of hours or less to get to the tree line would have been better than walking around not knowing where your heading...(snip...)

Let's hold off on speculations and pronouncements of *we* would have or could have done differently.

First of all, we don't have the pertinant details of where they were, what their intended route was and what the conditions and forecasts were at the various decision points.

Second, let's not underestimate the severity of the conditions they were in. I've been in near whiteouts above treeline only on a small handful of times. In one case, the max winds were in the 60mph range which was enough to reduce us to moving on all 4s. I can imagine trying to push through a 75mph head wind (which they would have been facing) and I can't say they were wrong for hunkering down.

Thirdly and most importantly, we already know that friends and acquaintances of the victims are reading. While I'm as anxious as anybody to learn as much about what happened so that we can learn how to avoid making decisions that increase our risk, let's be super, super careful to avoid passing judgements that would appear critical. If/when we get more details, we'll be able to sift through it all and learn.

 

[bill bowden]

LaFayette

Sunday, we hiked Clinton (most of it anyway) driving through the notch, I recall how clear LaFayette and the Bridle Path looked, quite inviting.

At about 3800 feet on the Crawford Path we ran into fairly heavy snow, trail wasn't broken (only a few inches of fresh snow, but tending to obscure the path). When we reached the broken treeline area the wind began to pick up some, nothing too terrible, but with fog, wind and snow,it was a little more difficult to keep to the path. Recalling past incidents where hikers on the Craford path had missed the trail when it re-entered the trees, we turned around and walked off the mountain.

Having had to descend the Bridle Path in fog and rime ice, I can comment that even a heavily travelled trail can be very hard to follow above treeline in poor visibility. following the trail in snow, fog and into the wind would be even more difficult.

If these folks were on the traverse over to Lincoln, retreat would be even more problematic, with no reasonable escape hatch from the wind and no mobility in the uncompacted snow.

My overall reaction "There but for the grace of God,go I"

 

[ChrisB]

GPS-ing

Interesting comments on GPS use ...

I think over reliance on GPS technology (like cell phones) can actually lead one into trouble by providing that sense of invinciblity.

And while waypoints and Trak Back are a boon to low/no-visibility navigation, they provide no guarantee you'll come back if you press on into the malestrom.

Weather condx, tree cover, antenna efficiency etc. all effect the quality and accuracy of the fix.

Extreme cold (such as the Cox pary faced) can render an LCD display very hard (or impossible) to read. Batteries lose energy quickly. Extra batteries get cold and are hard to change with frozen fingers.

And suppose you know exactly where you are, but conditions are so bad you can't move to where you want/need to be?

Like any tool, GPS has a role to play in wilderness navigation but is by no means a failsafe solution.

cb

 

[Kevin Rooney]

Condition on Sunday

I was also hiking on Sunday. The plan was to climb Jefferson via the Jewell Trail from the Mansfield Station. Hourly weather observations for Washington showed the wind was mostly out of the NW in the 40mph range for several hours. The forecast was for snow showers with falling temps into the 20’s in the valley, which meant we’d likely encounter squalls at some point. We were a motivated in that one of our members was hoping to finish the NH 4’s in all seasons. The group was fit, ranging in age from late teens to early 60’s, and experience ranging from newbies to experienced winter hikers. We had the usual winter gear, and in addition to maps and compasses, had a Garmin Vista GPS with the map software downloaded to it.

When we arrived at the Cog Station we saw glimpses of blue sky overhead, which was encouraging in the short-term, but turned out to be a brief interlude between two fronts moving thru. We started up the Jewell trail with just boots. The trail was lightly broken, but had not seen much travel. Around 3K’ we put on snowshoes, and as we approached treeline we were in thin clouds with a light wind. Visibility was a couple of hundred yards with the palletized snow you sometimes encounter in such cloud conditions. At first we could see about 2 cairns ahead of us, and during the next 45 minutes or so that gradually decreased to 1 cairn or less. The wind and snow increased steadily as we climbed higher, and ever mindful of the admonition never to climb into worsening conditions, made the call to turn around just below the junction with Gulfside, at about 5,300’ elevation. As ChrisB points out above, the cold and poor light made the GPS tracks difficult to discern. At this point we were still 2 miles from Jefferson’s summit. Based upon Bill Bowden’s account above, we turned back about the same time as his group. In the comparatively short time we had been above treeline, there were a few places where our tracks were obliterated. A few hundred yards into the safety of the trees we had lunch while pelted with another snow squall. As we descended we realized the weather, even below treeline, was getting worse as the day wore on, not better as it looked first thing in the morning. Later, driving home, snow squalls reduced visibility to less than 25’, especially around the Franconia Notch. I can only imagine what it must have been like to on Lafayette at that point.

I offer the above to illustrate how bad conditions became on Sunday afternoon, and from news accounts, the conditions only got worse. My heart goes out to the Coxes, their family, and friends.

 

[CaptCaper]

CaptCaper: let's not second guess. This is not the forum to do so. None of us were there, and don't know how we would have fared.
I had an experience on King Ravine the day after Thanksgiving in 1978 that I will never forget. In a matter of minutes (yes, minutes), the ceiling dropped, heavy snow started falling, and a relative calm turned into the worst conditions I've ever been in. We were pinned on the upper King Ravine wall with no hope of descending, and 200 feet or so to the ridgeline. We were lucky to have survived. To this day, other than rechecking one of my climbing partners gear before leaving (how many of us do that?), I don't feel we did anything "wrong", and did most things right. In any event, we all survived, but one had severe frostbite on 3 fingers and 2 toes (almost lost one of them).

In any event, it's not time to criticize on this sad event. It does nothing for the Cox's, Ken, Jaytrek or anyone else or the friends and family they leave behind.

I wasn't so much second guessing as presenting a scenario. It's obvious no one knows what happened yet.

Sorry.

 

[maineguy]

"We were a motivated in that one of our members was hoping to finish the NH 4’s in all seasons"

I rest my case...

 

[Dr. Dasypodidae]

I use GPS extensively in geological mapping, IN CONTROLLED ENVIRONMENTS. I cannot imagine trying to use a GPS to find my way out of a mountain storm on foot; 40 years of back-country experience still tell me that a map, compass, and some times a pocket altimeter are the only way to go (the compass and altimeter dangle from cords around my neck; the map is either in my hand or in a very accessible parka pocket).

I agree with the posts that note winter mountaineering is an inherently dangerous sport. Some times you simply run out luck, no matter the amount of experience, knowledge, and preparation and the number of skills you have.

And, obviously, these statments apply to couples and small groups, besides solo artists. In many respects, winter hiking in the Whites and Daks is no different that extreme mountaineering on peaks in South America, such as depicted in "Touching the Void."

 

[CaptCaper]

Re: GPS-ing

Interesting comments on GPS use ...

I think over reliance on GPS technology (like cell phones) can actually lead one into trouble by providing that sense of invinciblity.

And while waypoints and Trak Back are a boon to low/no-visibility navigation, they provide no guarantee you'll come back if you press on into the malestrom.

Weather condx, tree cover, antenna efficiency etc. all effect the quality and accuracy of the fix.

Extreme cold (such as the Cox pary faced) can render an LCD display very hard (or impossible) to read. Batteries lose energy quickly. Extra batteries get cold and are hard to change with frozen fingers.

And suppose you know exactly where you are, but conditions are so bad you can't move to where you want/need to be?

Like any tool, GPS has a role to play in wilderness navigation but is by no means a failsafe solution.

cb

I have hiked and scuba dived with my wife,kids since for over 11 years. The kids were 10 and diveing.

Like I said earlier I feel for this family and husband very much. The responsiblity and loss to bear will be overwhelming.

I wasn't going to post at all in this one, because I knew I'd ruffle some feathers but If I can help someone in the future to find the way home I'm a happy man. And the attention this post will bring light to something that makes a difference.

GPS does work and I don't have any problem with accuracy and reliablity. One would be surprised on how well you can use it in adverse conditions. Better than nothing at all or just haveing the basic's.

It does work and has saved my butt plenty of times. Maybe that's the difference here. If I can use it with out haveing a high school diploma anybody can.

Maybe I shouldn't have brought this into this post,but why not? Were talking about tragedy here and an incident or incidents ,that happened.
If I put it in a regular post a lot of people wouldn't read about it. "Oh,it's just a toy."and skip over it.

The USA has spent billions of dollars for us to have a toy,eh? Their building stations now that will aid in the pinpoint accuracy anywhere in the usa. Including the mountains.The USCG is in charge of the project. Heading other US deartments like DOT,etc.

Alot of you know my position on GPS and it'll never change alot don't.

Like I said if one hiker is saved one day because of this I'll be happy.

 

[TomEske]

GPS is a tool, just like a compass and a map or an altimeter. If you learn to use the tool well under varying conditions, your skill and confidence increases. I have used a GPS just in order to build my skills, played with it quite a bit and now leave it in my pack most of the time, knowing it will be there when I need it. One new habit I have developed is before I begin every hike, I record the waypoint of the parking area. In case of total confusion due to changing conditions, at least I will have a bee-line to follow.
The key is to be very familiar with your equipment and practice. Also, one of the nice benefits of a GPS is that the altitude readings are not affected by severe changes in barometric pressure as many of the mechanical ones are.
That having been said, I don't know that a GPS would have helped this unfortunate couple. I've been in enough tight spots to know just how dis-oriented one can get in a white-out. Throw in the high winds and chilling cold, and you get one ugly set of circumstances. I don't think anyone who has "been there" would second guess someone who didin't make it through such an ordeal.
My heart goes out to them and theirs,
Tom

 

[Mike P.]

It's been a sad winter in the whites & hopefuly we will learn more about what happened here. Did they go up Flling Waters or OBP? If planning on getting back that night I have to think they started around normal time (8-10: AM) so across the ridge & fighting the wind in their faces seems to make sense unless they started around 12:00 As fit hikers I can only guess (on the fit part) they would have had more time to get down just Lafayette starting at 9:00 & going up OBP.

(Sherpa maybe it's a good thing we are well insulated?)

A lot of 2nd guessing of course & hopefully we will learm more, obviously they missed the time to turnaround but I'm trying to figure out how bad they (she) must have been to not get very far on Monday. A well rested hiker should have made some head way down but without -20 bags & overnight gear the night was not a good one.

To Capt Capers point, the path down may very well have been gone five minutes after they put in the foot steps. Cell phone, maybe they could have hoped to have had some warmer gear dropped (could the chopped fly that low in that kind of weather) if they could not have been picked up.

 

[Tom]

Lafayatte SAR/GPS

On Monday afternooon I was climbing the Lonesome Lake trail to the hut about 2:30. We saw the helicopter flying between Lafayette and LIncoln, hovering, going up and down, sometimes going low enough to blow snow under the rotors.

We had no idea what was going on. We figured it was a new pilot practicing flying in the notch for future SARs. It never occurred to us that someone was really lost.

It wasn't until I came out this morning and stopped a a gas station and saw a newspaper that I understood what happened.

On Monday night, the temp was 2 degrees and falling at the hut when I turned in about 8:30. I had a -25 bag and was fine, but would not have wanted to have been outside without overnight gear.

I undestand that they were found near the summit. I'm not sure why the helicopter could not find them on Monday or why they stayed near the summit (if they in fact did). I have been very cold before and know that it numbs your ability to think. I have made it home in trudge mode, putting one foot in front of the other, my cold and tired brain able to focus on only one thing: accomplish the one task of which my brain was aware: go to the trailhead. Had I fallen into a wet stream I doubt if I would have been aware enough to change clothes (if I even could). Had I taken a wrong trail, I wouldn't be typing now. Cold is insidious in its effects on our thinking, and high winds make it even worse. The constant roar, even when I'm not cold, wears me down on an elemental level.

I don't understand it, and to be honest, this danger is part of the allure of winter hiking. I'm scared to death of roller coasters (even though they are quite safe) and revel in standing on a summit in a wind so strong I cannot even open my eyes unless I'm wearing goggles. Maybe I'm whacked, but I love it.

Regarding GPSs, before I left home Monday morning, I entered two routes into it, one from LL Hut up to the Kinsmans and one to Cannon, our planned hikes. I do this on winter hikes in case the weather turns bad very suddenly and I'm caught in a white out. I also carry a compass and extra batteries for the GPS (six extra AA cells - the GPS takes 2) because the cold does reduce battery life dramatically.

I agree with the posters who say that over-reliance on a GPS is dangerous, but it is equally dangerous (in my opinion) not to carry one. A compass will point you west (or east or norht or south) to bushwahck to a highway. A pre-done GPS route, wilth about 20 or thirty waypoints, and the key spots properly labeled *could* work better than a compass in finding a way home. I tend to label summits, trail junctions and key parts of trail. This last one I did after those six boneheads came down off Lafayette a couple years ago and went off the wrong side of the ridge (to Skooumchuck vice heading toward Greenleaf hut). In this case a compass would also have worked, of course. A GPS is a good thing to have, but it is electronic and it does rely on conditions beyond our control (picking up satellites), so I would never carry one in lieu of compass, but in addition to.

Someone said a GPS would do no good if it showed you where to go but you were pinned by the weather and unable to move. I certainly agree with that assessment but fail to see why this makes a carrying a GPS not a good idea. For that matter, what good are crampons/snowshoes if you are pinned by the weather?

Whoever said a GPS was a tool was right on. Like a compass and navigation/map reading skills, a GPS could be a life saver. If you have a compass, map and GPS and are still pinned by weather, or fall into a ravine and break a leg, well, you're just screwed. Sometimes you can have all the right tools and equipment and knowledge, and just have a run of bad luck. But having the tools, and knowedge increases your odds of survival.

Tom

 

[Fitz]

I know one of the folks in that group. Definitely not a "bonehead".

Crap happens even to the best of us. Hopefully, we won't be writing about you some day.

 

[CaptCaper]

The Concord Monitor today said they had gone up the Falling Waters Trail (and had a map of them so doing) because their car was parked at the Falling Waters Trailhead I have not provided a link to this article because that is a silly statement - of course they could have gone up the Old Bridle Path instead.

Going from Lafayette to the hut. the trail zags R around a cliff not far from the summit, so if you are following a straight GPS course you will go over the cliff. If you put in plenty of waypoints you will miss the cliff but may freeze to death trying to follow such a detailed course, that is if the GPS dial doesn't fog over in such conditions. Sometimes low tech is better.

I've used it to below zero.

Following a proper route isn't a straight line. Also to turn around and go back with a track that has been recording is the way to go. Although some might know that it seems. Or bother to record them.

I didn't know a gps has a "dial'. If it's a screen your talking about I've never seen one fog over at least at my helm. If it's not waterproof you put in a special pouch for that. The one's made now are waterproof.

Oh,by the way I've got a FastLane pass too.

 

[CaptCaper]

GPS is a tool, just like a compass and a map or an altimeter. If you learn to use the tool well under varying conditions, your skill and confidence increases. I have used a GPS just in order to build my skills, played with it quite a bit and now leave it in my pack most of the time, knowing it will be there when I need it. One new habit I have developed is before I begin every hike, I record the waypoint of the parking area. In case of total confusion due to changing conditions, at least I will have a bee-line to follow.
The key is to be very familiar with your equipment and practice. Also, one of the nice benefits of a GPS is that the altitude readings are not affected by severe changes in barometric pressure as many of the mechanical ones are.
That having been said, I don't know that a GPS would have helped this unfortunate couple. I've been in enough tight spots to know just how dis-oriented one can get in a white-out. Throw in the high winds and chilling cold, and you get one ugly set of circumstances. I don't think anyone who has "been there" would second guess someone who didin't make it through such anordeal.
My heart goes out to them and theirs,
Tom

Amen, pratice makes perfect. I use it on small hikes to pratice and to keep it fresh for the big hikes.

I have recorded evey hike I've done including Lafayette. Every active track. And save them to the pc for a later time and to remember the detail of the hike.I reuse them if I'm going back so I don't have to load alot of unproven routepoints.

 

[Maddy]

Re: Condition on Sunday

(Regards to Brutus Kevin! I don't know that dog but I really like him.)

" The wind and snow increased steadily as we climbed higher, and ever mindful of the admonition never to climb into worsening conditions, made the call to turn around just below the junction with Gulfside, at about 5,300’ elevation."

I posted on the AMC boards on this topic and was not going to post again but I just can't help myself.
I will start by reiterating a statement in the AMC guidebook years ago. It scared me to death at the time but I have never forgotten it.
I quote: "At the first sign of bad weather abandon your climb without shame for the worse is yet to come. Freezing fog blinds and suffocates. Hurricane force winds exhaust the strongest hiker." It went on to explain what would happen if you chose to carry on. It was not a pretty picture.
One of the posts here includes the admoniton by F&G to" equip yourself on your day hike in such a way that you can spend the night outdoors". I interpret that to mean that one should carry a substantial amount of gear to keep yourself warm in the event that things aren't going well for you. Giving up speed for safety. Probably not a bad idea.
Kevin was "ever mindful" of the admonition to "abandon his climb without shame" and probably not a minute to soon. No one would argue that" the worse "was well on it's way.
Unfortunately, I think sometimes things go terribly wrong and we find ourselves ill prepared or not playing by the rules for any number of reasons.
We might get careless, overconfident, lazy, or maybe we do not fully comprehend exactly what it is we are about to get ourselves into.
We travel light, we ignore the AMC/ranger warnings, we depend on technology that cannot be depended on in bad weather. We do not understand the real definition of "bad weather" in the Whites or the Daks,etc.
Experience is a great teacher if we survive it. Others are less fortunate.
Even Joe Simpson believed that he "was stronger than that."
He freely admitted that he and Simon thought they were better than the rest who had tried and failed on Siula Grande. It almost cost them both their lives.
It's interesting to note that their climb has never been repeated. I have often operated under similar delusions. The mountains do tend to sober you up quickly.
My deepest sympathy to all who have lost friends and family is such a tragic way this winter.
Maddy

 

[Tom]

I know one of the folks in that group. Definitely not a "bonehead".

Crap happens even to the best of us. Hopefully, we won't be writing about you some day.

Fritz, I answered you but moved the discussion to General Backcountry because this really has nothing to do with the Coxes.

Tom

 

[RoySwkr]

I've used it to below zero.
...
I didn't know a gps has a "dial'. If it's a screen your talking about I've never seen one fog over at least at my helm. If it's not waterproof you put in a special pouch for that. The one's made now are waterproof.

I know that in cold and wind my glasses freeze over and become worthless, I imagine that a similar thing might happen with a GPS screen. I am more concerned that by trying to read a small screen in poor visibility you are exposing your face to more weather than necessary, hence my comment about freezing to death.

Following a proper route isn't a straight line. Also to turn around and go back with a track that has been recording is the way to go. Although some might know that it seems. Or bother to record them.

Right now, we don't know whether they came up from the hut or not, if they had a GPS track from Little Haystack it might not have been wise to follow it back.

Regarding GPSs, before I left home Monday morning, I entered two routes into it, one from LL Hut up to the Kinsmans and one to Cannon, our planned hikes. I do this on winter hikes in case the weather turns bad very suddenly and I'm caught in a white out.

I don't believe that obtaining GPS coordinates from maps is good enough for whiteouts above treeline. The USGS maps are not that accurate, and the scale of the AMC maps is such that the natural error in a point is maybe the same as the distance between cairns - if you can't see between cairns, you might not be able to see a cairn from the GPS point either. A track log is better but not perfect, there are plenty of places in the Whites where even 6 feet from the trail will put you on the wrong side of a cliff.

I agree with the guy who said that GPS is a tool that may help you, but no guarantee that you will survive. In this case a cell phone could have been a better tool (if it worked). Possibly the rescuers would have been more aggressive in pushing to the summit on Monday if they had known for sure about where to look, while at the time they may have seen it as a needless risk as the couple could have been on many trails or ravines in the area.

 

[jjmcgo]

Does anyone think that the removal of so many shelters and tent platforms has made the wilderness more dangerous and resulted in more deaths? That was one of the arguments ignored when the shelters were being removed.

 

[dug]

The areas around the incidents this winter either still have the shelters in place (Guyot), or never had them (top of Lafayette & Mt. Reagan).

Besides the fact that it is, after all the "Wilderness".