Hotel on Mt Washington??!!

[peakbagger]

The local leaders cant do much until an application is received before the board.

 

[NHClimber]

I agree with all of the above sentiments about current demographics. But as the general population increases I think we will see expansion of facilities across all demographics. It's only a matter of time. Funny that years ago we considered North Conway to be "up there". Now the MWV is just the gateway to going further north and avoiding the crowds. We travel as far north as we can these days. Evans Notch, Grafton Notch, Kelsey Notch, Nash Stream, Mahoosic Notch, etc. are regular options.

 

[peakbagger]

There is subtle change in the radius of travel that folks from the Boston area are comfortable with, since the speed limit increase north of Concord effectively the speed limit on I 93 is now approaching 80 MPH. This means the traditional "two hours" of driving is now getting north of the notches. I expect cheap gas doesn't hurt.

 

[NHClimber]

Hopefully 16 will remain as is, and it's loaded with staties, so the east side of NH is still a harder drive for most coming from Boston, particularly with the Hampton tolls. The cog is probably best approached by 93 and then 3 and Twin Mountain.

 

[nartreb]

Hopefully 16 will remain as is, and it's loaded with staties, so the east side of NH is still a harder drive for most coming from Boston, particularly with the Hampton tolls. The cog is probably best approached by 93 and then 3 and Twin Mountain.

The rte 16 route from Boston has seen a lot of road improvements since I started driving north. Besides the Big Dig (vast improvements to 93 North out of downtown Boston including much better flow through the Route 1 intersection) there has been a lot of work on the "Spaulding Turnpike" - Portsmouth to Milton. (Wikipedia tells me that route 16 bypassed the Spaulding Turnpike until the 1990s - that's part of what I remember, but the Turnpike itself has also expanded more recently.) I'm guessing that the Spaulding Turnpike being a toll road makes it easier to fund improvements in that stretch, but I will not be surprised if road-widening creeps northward (and/or the tolled segment lengthens).

I'm not sure these have made much difference in travel time - traffic in Conway seems to have increased, and thanks to better maps / computerized directions, more people are using the "secret" back roads and creating bottlenecks where there were none before.

 

[hikerbrian]

There is no question there are a LOT more people in the Whites these days than there were, say, 15 years ago. The change is really quite dramatic. The reason why is more complicated. I think it's a combination of things: better clothing and gear (it's all 'easier' now); people have more money to spend on said gear; there's vast information on the lists and the easiest way to do every peak; there's a certain amount of FB notoriety in completing a peak or a list; etc, etc.

The population in the greater Boston area has increased about 15% since 2000. That's a pretty big change, but I don't think it accounts for the 200%-400% (my best guess) increase in the number of people on the trails. I don't feel like my drive time to anywhere in the Whites has changed appreciably with the 70 MPH speed limit. Traffic seems to be a much larger determinant of drive time, and that has gotten worse. I haven't heard anyone note the number of visitors coming from north of the Whites. I only have anecdotal information, but when I did Lafayette in May with my family, I'd guess French-Canadians outnumbered Americans by a factor of at least 3:1.

Sierra's comments on the Highland Center: I feel exactly the same way. I wish it was a spot for hikers and backpackers to convene, but it most certainly is not. I got firmly scolded recently for placing my (clean) backpack on one of the tables while changing shoes: "Sir, could you please take your backpack off the table." Really?! I think my view of the AMC is quite favorable relative to other VFTT-ers, but I'm not terribly fond of the direction the organization is going. It feels like the policy is: Our mission is to purchase and conserve land, to do that we need money, so let's maximize the amount of money we make at our facilities by catering to an upscale demographic. Of course I'm all for conservation, but there's a big loss to our hiking community in focusing on money-making as a means of achieving that goal.

All of the huts feel a bit gentrified to me too. Maybe I'm just getting old and crotchety, but I feel like an impostor when I walk in with dirty boots and anything other than the latest and greatest shell/down jacket/pack/etc. And I'm not willing to spend >$500 for a night for my family, crammed in with everyone else, eating food that is hit and miss. So the huts are not for me. Increasingly, none of the facilities operated by the AMC is for me.

Getting back to the topic, if this goes through, it will be another facility that is 'not for me.' Of course the world does not revolve around me and my wants, but if I got a say in it (which is unlikely anyway), I'd probably vote no.

 

[jniehof]

The Spaulding has always run from the Greenland/Portsmouth line to Milton; moving 16 onto it (redesignating old 16 as unsigned 16B/108/125) is indeed more recent. I don't think there's any plan to extend the Turnpike designation (and tolling) north of Strafford County. The Rochester expansion from two lanes to six is a few years old and made a big difference in traffic but didn't affect the designation. I believe the tolls do stay somewhat within the designated area. The current project is to go eight lanes over the Little Bay to about the Dover tolls and then a subsequent, different project to replace the tolls. Expanding through Dover would be difficult at best. Once the Newington work is done it's going to be dang near impossible to get on the Spaulding in Dover since the 55MPH limit will be even more ignored.

 

[peakbagger]

With respect to usage, if you have access to a copy of Forest and Crag by Laura and Guy Waterman, pull it out and open it to Part Five and particularly Chapter 51. Figure 51.2 is probably of great interest for reference.

I caught the tail end of the seventies/early eighties boom in the whites when I was in high school traveling up from Portland. I was more of a backpacker than a dayhiker and wasn't up frequently but in my opinion the woods were far more crowded than today. Of course the usage appears to have shifted to day use versus overnight so that clouds the issue. I remember going to Desolation Shelter one weekend and there were over 50 tents set up in the surrounding woods. The RUAs weren't really in effect so every flat spot within a days walk of the road along a stream had someone camping.

Over recent years while bushwhacking I frequently find long abandoned campsites well out on the fringes of trails. Generally the beer cans frequently present would be pull tabs.

Interesting, I ran into the long term ridgerunner on Lafayette this weekend and he commented that there was study onover usage going on.

 

[Amy]

I grew up hanging out at Pinkham and the old cottages at the Crawford site. I frequent the Highland center for coffee and the bathroom's and it may just be me, but it does not give off a hikers vibe. It's a nice building, but it's so generic. I agree with the above statements in regards to an aging AMC. When I see an AMC sticker on car, 90% of the time, they are senior citizens. I think they would have been better served, making the Highland center more Hut in style. They could have built sections with bunks, offering just bunks and no food, making the cost more conducive to hikers that just want to crash, then go hike. Bringing in younger people, might grow their base. But, a lot of younger people and some older hikers, don't want to drop 75 bucks on a night. I would love to know the occupancy numbers for the HC.

I understand this sentiment. But I have to state, that without the AMC and their amenities, it would have been difficult for a lot of us to get into hiking. Not all of us grew up in the mountains, or were lucky enough to have family or friends to introduce us to hiking/camping. I discovered the Highland Center about 10 years ago when I signed up for a yoga-hiking weekend. Both the yoga and organized hiking sucked, but the camaraderie and easy access to trails sparked something for me. I returned to the HC a few times over the next few years taking trail recommendations from their staff, which got me up most of the presidentials and and nearby 4000's. I eventually got brave enough to borrow a backpack from the gear room and do an overnight at LoC. I was so proud of myself! I've since graduated from AMC facilities, bought myself a tent and have mastered car camping. My next goal is an overnight at Guyot or similar. The more experienced I get, the more annoyed I get at the crowds. I only keep doing the 4000's because it brings me to new places in the Whites that I probably wouldn't have gone otherwise.

Yes, the AMC facilities are geared towards the less experienced or less capable, but without them, many of us may never have gotten into this hobby.

 

[Driver8]

I understand this sentiment. But I have to state, that without the AMC and their amenities, it would have been difficult for a lot of us to get into hiking. Not all of us grew up in the mountains, or were lucky enough to have family or friends to introduce us to hiking/camping. I discovered the Highland Center about 10 years ago when I signed up for a yoga-hiking weekend. Both the yoga and organized hiking sucked, but the camaraderie and easy access to trails sparked something for me. I returned to the HC a few times over the next few years taking trail recommendations from their staff, which got me up most of the presidentials and and nearby 4000's. I eventually got brave enough to borrow a backpack from the gear room and do an overnight at LoC. I was so proud of myself! I've since graduated from AMC facilities, bought myself a tent and have mastered car camping. My next goal is an overnight at Guyot or similar. The more experienced I get, the more annoyed I get at the crowds. I only keep doing the 4000's because it brings me to new places in the Whites that I probably wouldn't have gone otherwise.

Yes, the AMC facilities are geared towards the less experienced or less capable, but without them, many of us may never have gotten into this hobby.

Hear, hear! The huts can serve as a backstop for those of us less conditioned than we'd like and as a capability extender. There's little that's both human and ideal. The AMC offers decent services and, particularly with the huts, given their setting, at a more than reasonable price, imo, even though that price gets expensive for a whole family.

 

[B the Hiker]

I grew up hanging out at Pinkham and the old cottages at the Crawford site. I frequent the Highland center for coffee and the bathroom's and it may just be me, but it does not give off a hikers vibe. It's a nice building, but it's so generic. I agree with the above statements in regards to an aging AMC. When I see an AMC sticker on car, 90% of the time, they are senior citizens. I think they would have been better served, making the Highland center more Hut in style. They could have built sections with bunks, offering just bunks and no food, making the cost more conducive to hikers that just want to crash, then go hike. Bringing in younger people, might grow their base. But, a lot of younger people and some older hikers, don't want to drop 75 bucks on a night. I would love to know the occupancy numbers for the HC.

The AMC has a very clear plan: bring children and youth into the woods and teach them one can do something other than hunt and ride ATVs. This is what they're doing with school kids in Maine, and this is what they are doing with the Highland Center. You are correct, it is not designed to be Pinkham Notch. It is family-friendly, based on the idea that if children come up to the Whites or into the woods of Maine and learn to hike and respect Mother Nature, they are more likely to become hikers, or at least good stewards of the land later on.

 

[Tom_Murphy]

I understand this sentiment. But I have to state, that without the AMC and their amenities, it would have been difficult for a lot of us to get into hiking. Not all of us grew up in the mountains, or were lucky enough to have family or friends to introduce us to hiking/camping. I discovered the Highland Center about 10 years ago when I signed up for a yoga-hiking weekend. Both the yoga and organized hiking sucked, but the camaraderie and easy access to trails sparked something for me. I returned to the HC a few times over the next few years taking trail recommendations from their staff, which got me up most of the presidentials and and nearby 4000's. I eventually got brave enough to borrow a backpack from the gear room and do an overnight at LoC. I was so proud of myself! I've since graduated from AMC facilities, bought myself a tent and have mastered car camping. My next goal is an overnight at Guyot or similar. The more experienced I get, the more annoyed I get at the crowds. I only keep doing the 4000's because it brings me to new places in the Whites that I probably wouldn't have gone otherwise.

Yes, the AMC facilities are geared towards the less experienced or less capable, but without them, many of us may never have gotten into this hobby.

Agree 100 %.

The AMC organization served as my passport to the Whites. From Day Hikes with the Worcester Chapter, to overnights in the huts, to overnights at the back country sites, to the Winter Hiking classes. I no longer need any of those supports/services but I am not sure I would be doing the trips I do today without them.

Since I never hear much criticism of the RMC huts, I do wonder, perhaps unfairly, if some of the criticism of the AMC huts is due to their role in helping generate cash for the other AMC functions, rather than their function of concentrating usage.

 

[NHClimber]

The AMC has a very clear plan: bring children and youth into the woods and teach them one can do something other than hunt and ride ATVs.

Ha. No bias here... I am not a hunter or an ATV'er, but there is nothing wrong with those activities.

 

[Driver8]

Ha. No bias here... I am not a hunter or an ATV'er, but there is nothing wrong with those activities.

Um, bias? Ever consider that he guides for the AMC in part because he believes in its mission? That's not bias, per se, I'd suggest, it's conviction and commitment. Would be great if we all formed and stuck to convictions in like manner.

 

[TJsName]

Um, bias? Ever consider that he guides for the AMC in part because he believes in its mission? That's not bias, per se, I'd suggest, it's conviction and commitment. Would be great if we all formed and stuck to convictions in like manner.

I'm a fan of most of what the AMC does. For an organization that large, there are bound to be disagreements in philosophy and execution. Overall I think it's a net-positive, and one can always keep pushing to be better. The idea of 'sticking to convictions' however - I would disagree with. I think one ought to remain open minded to change and improvements, letting facts and evidence drive ones actions, as opposed to clinging to one's beliefs. This may be semantics though, as perhaps you meant it more broadly as something like, 'people shouldn't be ashamed to advocated for the prosocial causes they support'.

The sticky part is whether the cause is truly prosocial. The aspect of bringing children into the woods should not be understated. My own experiences as a young person deeply impacted my love of nature. I was exposed to it and I enjoyed it. How is this different than indoctrination? Nothing was forced, and I was compelled to think critically about the relationship between myself and the woods; I am part nature. I think that people who see themselves as part of the world (as opposed to rulers of it) are more likely to take prosocial actions.

The question of what impact staying at the proposed hotel will have on later generations is important, and difficult to answer. Will a kid who hikes up to Lonesome Lake gain more appreciation than one who takes a train up above treeline? Will the experience be marketed as one is in the 'worlds worth weather', or that they are 'conquering' it? Will guests be given educational opportunities? I think the fundamental difference between the proposed hotel and the AMC (and even the MWOBS) is the mission. I think building a hotel there would be a wonderful opportunity to develop a mission statement to let the public know about any greater purposes the owners are working towards.

 

[sierra]

The AMC has a very clear plan: bring children and youth into the woods and teach them one can do something other than hunt and ride ATVs. This is what they're doing with school kids in Maine, and this is what they are doing with the Highland Center. You are correct, it is not designed to be Pinkham Notch. It is family-friendly, based on the idea that if children come up to the Whites or into the woods of Maine and learn to hike and respect Mother Nature, they are more likely to become hikers, or at least good stewards of the land later on.

Well, I certainly think that is a worthy mission. The YMCA did that very thing for me. A 7 day Wilderness trip. We slept in Hammocks, bushwhacked and climbed peaks. We crossed swamps, stepped in bee's nest and learned how to forage for plants. Some kids cried, some begged to go home, I was in heaven.

 

[peakbagger]

There is a legal notice in the Colebrook Chronicle today regarding changes to the Coos County Zoning Rules. The notice states to refer to the Coos County Planning Board Website for all the details but the webpage was not updated as of 8 AM today (7/14). Reading through the proposed changes in the notice there does not seem to be any softening of the regulations that would assist the Cog Hotel application if and when it is submitted. If anything there is some tightening of regulations.

One in particular is that the County asserts that they have authority over private development on state owned land. I expect that is not applicable to the proposed Cog development but the state does own several parcels which might be ripe for allowing private recreational development on state land as the state DRED is chronically short of funding. As an example, the Lake Umbagog State Park upgrade scheduled for this summer was canceled when the bids came in too high. Jericho Lake State Park (the ATV park in Berlin) has a very substantial development plan with a very great demand for services but to date the development has been slowed by lack of capital funding. In either case I expect that a private developer might be willing to fund improvements in exchange for a major cut of the profits.

If judged on the public efforts to date by the board, they are setting themselves up to have a fair hearing for the Cog hotel.

 

[peakbagger]

Good news but hope folks don't drop their vigilance. Fred King, who has lot of influence argued previously that the existing rules leave some leeway for a permit,

 

[TJsName]

How much money do you think it would take to buy out the Cog and turn the land over to convert the land to NF?

 

[CaptCaper]

How much money do you think it would take to buy out the Cog and turn the land over to convert the land to NF?

Hope it isn't done soon..taking my Grandkids up it tomorrow morning... Love the Cog Love Hiking Love my 4 stroke Yami snowmachines,Love my Lance Truckcamper (hate camping on ground now)...
Might as well take out Wildcat Ski area and all the rest...oh..take out the paved roads leading here from Ma. Ha.
Hate extreme folks... Love Trump. Check Mate.

Locals tell me AMC doesn't pay taxes ..shame on them if this is true..