Becca M
Active member
Could this installation possibly provide the highest elevation bar in NH? In New England? This would be WAY above the Cannon Tram station bar!!!!!
Hotel on Mt Washington??!!
- Thread starter Snowflea
- Start date
Help Support vftt.org:
ChrisB
Well-known member
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
There is an interview with Wayne Presby one of the owners of the Cog in todays Conway Daily Sun http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/Launch.aspx?PBID=8935a6d2-45fe-41aa-a882-206f6684f6a5 Page 5 (A free subscription is required to view the article) The claim is that building the facility will reduce usage at the summit
Of more interest is a statement that the Mt Washington Commission is considering running a sewer line down the Cog to replace the septic system at the summit. That is a very important cost that the Cog would most likely be able to get the summit commission to pay for since they would be using the Cogs right of way and property at the base. It also could be used as blackmail to quiet any dissent from the other entities on the mountain.
By the way, the proposed location appears to be at 3732' to 4195' ASL (location of the beginning and end of the siding) while the land around the Killington Bar appears to be 4148 ASL. If I remember correctly the Killington bar is located 2 stories above ground level so there could be Bar Wars to establish which bar is the highest. Of course the summit building could open up a few taps and that would be the end of it for New England
Of more interest is a statement that the Mt Washington Commission is considering running a sewer line down the Cog to replace the septic system at the summit. That is a very important cost that the Cog would most likely be able to get the summit commission to pay for since they would be using the Cogs right of way and property at the base. It also could be used as blackmail to quiet any dissent from the other entities on the mountain.
By the way, the proposed location appears to be at 3732' to 4195' ASL (location of the beginning and end of the siding) while the land around the Killington Bar appears to be 4148 ASL. If I remember correctly the Killington bar is located 2 stories above ground level so there could be Bar Wars to establish which bar is the highest. Of course the summit building could open up a few taps and that would be the end of it for New England
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
I have no doubt that local Cog supporters will be out in full force to attempt to influence the boards approach despite that they will not be able to comment, their presence is enough . I expect not a lot of petition signers are going to drive up to Lancaster NH tomorrow night for the preliminary hearing.
Wayne Presby has quite a few supporters regionally having created a few rare year round enterprises as well as rescued a few others from oblivion. Realistically until the Cog put the train at the intersection of RT 302 and RT3 I think most locals regarded it as "out of sight out of mind".
Here is some background about biodiesel and the Cog conversion http://www.nhbr.com/July-3-2009/Biodiesel-is-Wayne-Presbys-next-challenge/
Wayne Presby has quite a few supporters regionally having created a few rare year round enterprises as well as rescued a few others from oblivion. Realistically until the Cog put the train at the intersection of RT 302 and RT3 I think most locals regarded it as "out of sight out of mind".
Here is some background about biodiesel and the Cog conversion http://www.nhbr.com/July-3-2009/Biodiesel-is-Wayne-Presbys-next-challenge/
JCarter
Member
I'm really confused about the proposed location. The original news reports referenced the Skyline Switch (which appears to have been located at about 5600'). I think the area you are referencing is the Waumbek passing track, which is much lower down the mountain. I can't find the Skyline Switch in modern aerial photos, though I've seen reports that it was still there in 2011 (but no photos that recent).
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
I was confused but they reference one mile from the summit which lines up with the passing track
Last edited:
Hey with a possible sewer line installed maybe there might be Micro Brewery. I can see it now....."Smog Rail Ale".
Rainman
Member
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2012
- Messages
- 154
- Reaction score
- 1
With the stated location at the former Skyline Switch (coincident with the West Side Trail crossing) this building will be visible from Jefferson. I expect that it will also be visible from the top portion of Caps Ridge.
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
I went to the hearing. Not much information was presented. The proposed location is at 5200 which would be near but below the West side Trail. The owner did a long presentation on the history of the cog and the current issues at the summit. His claims are the State of NH is over promoting the summit and the summit is well over capacity, his project will in theory pull traffic off the summit. His claim is the high tech septic system that services the summit doesn't work well and there is a great need for alternative. He also claims that the state park runs at a loss and that the state is doesn't have the cash to do the needed capital improvements at the summit. His claim is that the state needs to spend money to support the various agencies who operate antennas on the summit and that will suck up any money that could be spent on upgrading the summit building. Therefore he is advocating having a nearby facility would be big plus for the area. He also was careful to note how great of a neighbor they are to the other entities in the area like the AMC (supporting the LOC hut), NH F&G (supporting S&R) and the hiking public by offering free parking year round (they used to charge for many years and at one point encouraged the USFS to build the fee lot and relocate the trails away from the cog lot). They are quite proud of the improvements to the cog and are actively hauling debris left by prior owners off the summit. In general he established that they deserve to be able to build a new facility as they are such a nice bunch. One interesting point is that the Cog and Autoroad both pay $1 a head to the observatory to cover their lease payments to the state for their facility and then the remaining amount is split between the state and the obs.
The chairman of the board John Scarinza tried to keep things neutral. Former Senator Fred King was definitely a major advocate for the plan and its obvious that he is going to assist the developer as much as possible. There are two roadblocks, Coos County has a pretty strict "overlay district" for any elevation over 2700 feet, the chairman of the board and the boards advisor feel that the rules would have to be amended to allow this private development. It was noted that these rules don't apply to the state property at the summit. Fred King feels that the board has it in their jurisdiction. A subsidiary issue is the developer will want relief from setbacks and that will require some relief from a separate board that has not met yet.
One of the board members asked a question about the lack of any preliminary information. He is a former thru hiker and AMC huts manager (but no longer a fan of AMC in any way). The other board members were silent, except for one who seems to be a supporter. There were suggestions that the Cog comes back to the board with more info. Near the end Cog asked what they needed to do to change the regulations, I think they realize that its going to need a local political effort to change the rules and expect Fred King will be the one to assist. One of the members mentioned that life safety would be an issue that needs addressing. and conveniently the state fire marshal happened to be present and gave a neutral answer that the board could impose special requirements to allow this type of construction.
There appeared to be some people in the audience that were most likely anti development but since there were no details and no public comment I expect any opposition will come later. I expect the board is quite aware that this is going to be quite a visible project.
One of the faulty linkages seems to be that putting a hotel near the summit is going to solve the problems of the summit. My belief is that it will increase the overall usage. The cog seems to downplay the increased number of passengers being brought to the summit by Cog modernization and seem to blame the hiking public for the increased usage. The autoroad hasn't modernized but definitely also has increased usage. Assuming the high tech septic system is unable to be operated more effectively, granted the cogs sewer proposed sewer line is an easy way out
The chairman of the board John Scarinza tried to keep things neutral. Former Senator Fred King was definitely a major advocate for the plan and its obvious that he is going to assist the developer as much as possible. There are two roadblocks, Coos County has a pretty strict "overlay district" for any elevation over 2700 feet, the chairman of the board and the boards advisor feel that the rules would have to be amended to allow this private development. It was noted that these rules don't apply to the state property at the summit. Fred King feels that the board has it in their jurisdiction. A subsidiary issue is the developer will want relief from setbacks and that will require some relief from a separate board that has not met yet.
One of the board members asked a question about the lack of any preliminary information. He is a former thru hiker and AMC huts manager (but no longer a fan of AMC in any way). The other board members were silent, except for one who seems to be a supporter. There were suggestions that the Cog comes back to the board with more info. Near the end Cog asked what they needed to do to change the regulations, I think they realize that its going to need a local political effort to change the rules and expect Fred King will be the one to assist. One of the members mentioned that life safety would be an issue that needs addressing. and conveniently the state fire marshal happened to be present and gave a neutral answer that the board could impose special requirements to allow this type of construction.
There appeared to be some people in the audience that were most likely anti development but since there were no details and no public comment I expect any opposition will come later. I expect the board is quite aware that this is going to be quite a visible project.
One of the faulty linkages seems to be that putting a hotel near the summit is going to solve the problems of the summit. My belief is that it will increase the overall usage. The cog seems to downplay the increased number of passengers being brought to the summit by Cog modernization and seem to blame the hiking public for the increased usage. The autoroad hasn't modernized but definitely also has increased usage. Assuming the high tech septic system is unable to be operated more effectively, granted the cogs sewer proposed sewer line is an easy way out
Last edited:
kltilton
Active member
- Joined
- Nov 22, 2004
- Messages
- 398
- Reaction score
- 47
Thanks for the update.
egilbe
Member
The cog railway is part of the burden on Summit. If the goal was to reduce the burden, wouldnt a better solution be to tear up the railroad tracks to the Summit? Or make the auto road foot traffic only?
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
One of the points made that I didn't discuss was an odd commentary that opening the hotel would allow older or disabled individuals to enjoy the summit experience. Considering there is already a cog and the auto road I expect that they were intending to link the opportunity for an overnight experience similar to the Lake of the Crowds experience or the Obs overnight experience. The board allowed the Cog to make the presentation while sitting down with no microphone so on occasion it was difficult to hear but I think that Presby stated that staying at the Obs cost $999 a night.
Presby did make several comments that the Cog hotel experience was going to be far more high end then that offered at the AMC hut system. He definitely talked down the huts experience being crowded, shared bunkrooms, limited menus, and lack of showers. He also made comparisons with Europe where high end hotel accommodations are apparently the norm.
Presby did make several comments that the Cog hotel experience was going to be far more high end then that offered at the AMC hut system. He definitely talked down the huts experience being crowded, shared bunkrooms, limited menus, and lack of showers. He also made comparisons with Europe where high end hotel accommodations are apparently the norm.
The Cog and the Auto Road pay OBS for free admission to the new " OBS Extreme Mt Washington" for riders of the cog and users of the Auto Road. They also pay a per head fee to the NHSP to help offset the heat, lights, water and toilet usage. Both come straight out of Cog tickets and Auto Road fares.
If OBS uses their " share" to help pay the lease, remember also that there is NHSP staff on duty 24/7/365 to maintain heat, electric power, water and septic facilities. It was not until 2008 that any of the summit staff in residence could take more than one 5 minute shower over an 8 day period.
NSHP is the agency that pays for the 50+ thousand gallons of Kerosene delivered to the summit each year, and that is roughly HALF of what was needed before valley power was brought to the summit.
Just sayin-- there is going to be a lot of " stuff" thrown at the walls to see what sticks. Presby and Co will be cherry picking what they talk about , and hoping that others on the MW Commission don't get their shorts in a bunch.
The cost of the overnight Edu-Trip is 899 for MWOBS members, and 999 for non members. Yep. Truth. And they are completely sold out for the 2016-2017 winter season.
If OBS uses their " share" to help pay the lease, remember also that there is NHSP staff on duty 24/7/365 to maintain heat, electric power, water and septic facilities. It was not until 2008 that any of the summit staff in residence could take more than one 5 minute shower over an 8 day period.
NSHP is the agency that pays for the 50+ thousand gallons of Kerosene delivered to the summit each year, and that is roughly HALF of what was needed before valley power was brought to the summit.
Just sayin-- there is going to be a lot of " stuff" thrown at the walls to see what sticks. Presby and Co will be cherry picking what they talk about , and hoping that others on the MW Commission don't get their shorts in a bunch.
The cost of the overnight Edu-Trip is 899 for MWOBS members, and 999 for non members. Yep. Truth. And they are completely sold out for the 2016-2017 winter season.
ChrisB
Well-known member
This got me thinking... a hotel might support year-round operations for the cog if skiing was put into the mix. The ski "piste" cleared by the cog starts right below the skyline switch. So a run from there to the base station would provide about 2500 vert. No too bad (but boring).
A ski and sty package for the cog la Sunday River is a possibility!
Wikipedia has some interesting photos of Cog history, including the summit hotel.
cb
Coal Porter
Dropped Pant Lager
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
Thanks for looking up the edu trip costs. Its really not a good comparison to the Cogs 7 month season proposal as the cog is having to haul everyone up via a snowcat.
My belief is barring public funding for the capital costs which the Cog insists it will not do, the capital costs for the hotel plus limited seasons is going to drive the cost of the experience up closer to the Edu trip price then the AMC hut price. Sure there are "hikers" who happen to be affluent but I don't expect many VFTT folks will be handing over their credit card very often for a stay.
The whole economics of the summit are confusing. Presby's claim is the state park runs at a loss yet there are two profitable tourist businesses whose success is directly related to the summit and what Presby described as numerous public and private telecom towers on the summit. I would expect that these towers should contribute to the cost for their operations and I have seen past complaints by a radio station about the outrageous power costs on the summit which apparently fund some summit operations by a surcharge on the power. Sadly the obs is an organization that appears to exist as a means to continue its existence, an anachronism whose time is probably past similar to the coal fired locomotives. At one point they served an important role in S&R but of late they specifically warn hikers that they are not trained or are able to participate in rescues. The state has apparently decided that based on that decision that they will staff the summit in the winter and I believe they have purchased a snow cat to support this effort.
I would curious to see if there has been any studies done to break out the summit users between Cog, Auto Road and hikers on foot. I expect the Cog and Auto road legitimately don't want to subsidize hiker traffic so the obvious solution is privatize the toilets and associated waste water disposal system. Each Cog and Autoroad visitor could get a token as part of their ticket and the hiker trash would have to buy a token to use the toilets. The token cost would then go to cover the cost for more sanitary facilities and the cost to deal with the waste. I expect there would be brisk trade in "I took a dump on Mt Washington" bumper stickers
.
The strange thing is I don't see or hear about a toilet/wastewater crisis on the summits of Chocorua and Monadnock two very popular mountains or Moosilaukee, Lincoln, Lafayette Jefferson Adams, Bigelow and Katahdin. This is indicative to me that the Auto road and Cog which is absent from the other summits are probably a major contributor to the problem and should be contributing for the majority of the costs.
My belief is barring public funding for the capital costs which the Cog insists it will not do, the capital costs for the hotel plus limited seasons is going to drive the cost of the experience up closer to the Edu trip price then the AMC hut price. Sure there are "hikers" who happen to be affluent but I don't expect many VFTT folks will be handing over their credit card very often for a stay.
The whole economics of the summit are confusing. Presby's claim is the state park runs at a loss yet there are two profitable tourist businesses whose success is directly related to the summit and what Presby described as numerous public and private telecom towers on the summit. I would expect that these towers should contribute to the cost for their operations and I have seen past complaints by a radio station about the outrageous power costs on the summit which apparently fund some summit operations by a surcharge on the power. Sadly the obs is an organization that appears to exist as a means to continue its existence, an anachronism whose time is probably past similar to the coal fired locomotives. At one point they served an important role in S&R but of late they specifically warn hikers that they are not trained or are able to participate in rescues. The state has apparently decided that based on that decision that they will staff the summit in the winter and I believe they have purchased a snow cat to support this effort.
I would curious to see if there has been any studies done to break out the summit users between Cog, Auto Road and hikers on foot. I expect the Cog and Auto road legitimately don't want to subsidize hiker traffic so the obvious solution is privatize the toilets and associated waste water disposal system. Each Cog and Autoroad visitor could get a token as part of their ticket and the hiker trash would have to buy a token to use the toilets. The token cost would then go to cover the cost for more sanitary facilities and the cost to deal with the waste. I expect there would be brisk trade in "I took a dump on Mt Washington" bumper stickers
. The strange thing is I don't see or hear about a toilet/wastewater crisis on the summits of Chocorua and Monadnock two very popular mountains or Moosilaukee, Lincoln, Lafayette Jefferson Adams, Bigelow and Katahdin. This is indicative to me that the Auto road and Cog which is absent from the other summits are probably a major contributor to the problem and should be contributing for the majority of the costs.
Being a member of the Obs and also a Ham Radio Operator I would totally disagree that the Obs is an anachronism. Also the use of radio towers are worth paying for in that location. Both are directly connected to important research and links to important communication chains. Both of which serve hikers, climbers, skiers, and members of the general public whom do not even go outdoors. When all else fails and the grid drops out we will all be glad someone is at the summit connecting the dots.
Last edited:
Similar threads
