Hydration systems & winter hiking

[gaiagirl]

I have a Platypus hydration bladder (that seems to be leaking since last month , but that's another thread i think). I also have a new pack that fits like a glove and is perfect for winter condition hiking and/or backpacking, but has useless side pockets for water bottles. It does have a hydration sleeve however. How well, if at all, can these be used during the winter months? Does anyone know any tricks, or should I just use my Nalgene bottles with some OR insulation sleeves? Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks ,

 

[NH_Mtn_Hiker]

There are a few tricks for using hydration bladders towards the colder Winter months, including wearing the bladder under your clothing and running the hose down your sleeve, but once the temps drop below 15 degrees or so It's Nalgene time.

I stick my Nalgene bottles upside down in zippered side pockets on my pack. I insulate them with acrylic watch caps. I also stick a chemical hand warmer in with each bottle on colder days. I've hiked at temps down to -20 with 70 mph winds using this system and I haven't had a bottle freeze yet.

Note: some people fill their bottles with hot water. This will gain you up to several hours before the water freezes, but on a longer hike or colder, windier day you'll need more to keep it from freezing.

 

[poison ivy]

If you use a hydration bladder, I'd add to make sure you blow any excess water back into the bladder after taking a drink to make sure the tube is clear of water. It will help keep the tube from freezing.

I've hiked with a hydration bladder in winter, but prefer using water bottles instead... for the same reasons NH_Mtn_Hiker has listed.

- Ivy

 

[Pete_Hickey]

I was able to make some straps, so that I could hold it against my chest, under my coat. Not only did it keep my water fom freezing, but it kept is warm. That meant that it was eaisier to drink.

 

[Nadine]

I bought one of those winterization kits for my Camelback. Between the neoprene tube and the covering over the bite valve it gave me another 10 degrees to play with. I would take the advice that others have given you though and use nalgene bottles in the colder temps. You can purchase an Outdoor Reasearch water bottle cozy for about 18 bucks and strap it to the outside of your pack if you're tight on space. I usually fill my bottle with hot water, put the bottle inside a wool sock, put that upside down in the cozy, wrap a chemical hand warmer around the outside of the sock and then zip it closed. It works pretty well, even in temps in the -20 range. I also bring a thermos (wrapped in the other sock) of something hot inside my pack as a back up.

Nadine

 

[Eric Savage]

(fluids freeze from the top down)

Actually most liquids/fluids freeze from the bottom up. Water, however, is nearly unique in that it freezes from the top down but since most "fluids" that we encounter are water-based, we take this as "normal."
Water has many other unusual properties which make it the incredibly versatile and useful substance that it is.

Closer to the topic, I have sprung a leak in two hydration systems for different reasons. One had a small slit in the folds at the bottom of the bag where it had apparently been creased too many times or for too long - this is probably a design flaw that fortunately does not apply to my new Nalgene bladder. However, my very young daughter decided to chew on my bite valve and now, due to the compromised seal, I will get leakage if the bladder is fairly full and I forget to put the valve in the closed position.

As to the main topic, I have had really good luck (and perhaps it is only luck) using my hydration system in the winter. In addition to the blowback method (my variation is to hold the tube up and let gravity take the water back into the bladder - the valve design may be helping me out as well), I also try to be sure to drink at least a sip every 5-10 minutes so that any ice that starts to form is melted. This is especially important if I take the pack off for any length of time (once the bladder is not resting against my very warm back the whole thing is vulnerable to freezing). I have even been able to "resurrect" the system after an apparent freeze by blowing into the tube and probably more effectively, waiting for my body heat to warm up the bladder again. Even so, I always carry back up. One in a cozy, one buried amongst the extra clothing in my pack, both upside down. In cold conditions (below zero above treeline) I'll find some slush in there by the end of the day but so far so good. I've never tried it in really cold conditions though (e.g. less than -10F, above treeline for several hours, etc.).

 

[coldfeet]

I learned the hard way last winter on my first winter hike, which was interesting (cabot)..i was using an insulated camelback...the tube froze and i couldn't drink...i put the tube inside my jacket to unfreeze it but it didn't work...i was a bad boy and ate some snow while no one was looking, i was thirsty....will use nalgene's from now on 30 and below..

 

[DougPaul]

One added trick to stretch your fluids/add to them - if you begin the hike with hot water/tea, you can add snow as your bottles. Just step several feet off the trail, look for a clean area (no animal droppings), and brush off the top few inches. Snow is clean, same as fresh catch rain water. This works best when you have at least 1/3 fluid remaining. If, after an hour or so, the bottle is still slushy, place it inside your coat (many have mesh for this purpose). If above treeline, you may be able to find more concentrated water in the form of rime ice on cairns.

The amount of energy in hot water is pretty small compared to the amount of energy required to melt ice/snow. This will only give you a small amount of extra water. (Correction--see later post. The energy in 1 gm of boiling water can melt 1.3 gm of water.)

And for melting snow with your body heat--ok while you are moving and have excess heat, not a good if you are stopped.

Also make sure the snow hasn't been windblown--all sorts of stuff can get blown into it, including fecal particles and/or yellow snow.

Doug

edit: correction

 

[KMartman]

ive ALWAYS had issues with my bladders in winter. I have used various methods and various bladder makers...none have gotten it down. My "homemade" idea (which is made but yet to be tested), takes the heating elemenst out of those silly socks and runs the wires down the lenght od the tube inside a neophrene sleeve with the "heating" parts resting VERY closly to the drinking port, but not to close to "burn" (yeah right) your mouth. I have tired to increase the condictivity of the heating element by wrapping it in alimunim and taping it with med tape. I will post something if it works...probably won't but I think the idea is solid. I just have to find a better heating element and one that uses SMALLER batteries...those 2 D batteries would kill a lightweight setup..

Anyway...I am workign on a patent so dont' steal the idea...just kidding...

M

 

[DougPaul]

Au contraire, Douglas. While we could quibble over the phrase "small amount" I've been able to extend my usual 2 quarts of hot tea to 3 quarts of diluted tea without much trouble.

Just ran the numbers--one can melt far more ice than I thought: cooling 1 gm of water from 100C (boiling) to 0C (freezing) releases 100 cal. 100 cal is enough heat to melt ~1.3 gm of water (heat of fusion 6kJ/mol). I would agree that is more than a "small amount".

But I'd still recommend treating the melted snow.

are there fluids which humans regularly ingest as part of a healthy diet which DON'T freeze from the top down?

Ethyl alcohol perhaps? However, normally consumed in a solution of mostly water. (We can leave the "healthy diet" issue for another thread... )

While we are on the subject:
A warning about strong drinks at temps well below freezing--the alcohol-water solution freezes at a temp well below the freezing point of flesh. There have been cases of "someone goes out to the car for a bottle of whiskey, takes a swig and dies". Frozen larynx and/or throat.

Doug

 

[gaiagirl]

Actually most liquids/fluids freeze from the bottom up. Water, however, is nearly unique in that it freezes from the top down but since most "fluids" that we encounter are water-based, we take this as "normal."
Water has many other unusual properties which make it the incredibly versatile and useful substance that it is.

This former middle school science teacher knows all about that, actually . What I didn't know was the real skinny on the hydration bladders. But I sure do now!!! I actually have seen a lot of these tricks with the bottles already, learned a lot of them from an excellent teacher, but still have so much to learn about winter hiking. Thanks too for the input on which bottle cozies are good and which aren't so good. I may just go with OR if I can work all of the stuff I'm going to need in my pitiful budget.
Last winter was the first time out for me, and in addition this year I may be alone often so long as I don't feel in over my head, so I figured I would mine all of the wisdom here. Obviously, that was a GOOD call !!!!!! Thank you everyone for the advice. I am taking notes furiously and will be preparing my winter gear with all of it in mind. Thank you, thank you, everyone !

 

[DougPaul]

Doug -

I'm pretty cautious about drinking from streams and always filter. But, in winter I think there's little risk if one uses a some common sense. For example - the risk of contaminated snow is real if taken from any slope downhill of a trail. However, if you turn uphill it's a whole different story. How many people pee uphill into a bank? Another precaution is to take the snow from the bow of an evergreen - little chance of human contamination there.

With a good wind behind me, I can pee quite a distance up or down hill.

This is just another instance of be prudent and make your own risk-benefit-effort tradeoffs. I would treat with a couple of drops of tincture of iodine. Very quick and easy.

BTW, just in case someone hasn't thought of this, filters freeze in winter and ceramic filter elements can crack when frozen.

Don't wish to beat this topic to death as it comes up every year.

But we beat so much else to death here...

PS - I thought of ethyl alchol, but short of some type of celebration, I've never seen anyone drink on the trail in winter. Am sure some VFTT'ers enjoy getting hammered at -20F deep in the woods, but I've not personally seen any ...

Most don't. But some people take booze into basecamps. And one could bring an airline-size bottle of booze along and swig it from the bottle without warming it first. I personally don't touch alcohol out in the cold--causes vasodilation and heat loss. Just figured it was worth mentioning while the subject was somewhere near the table.

Doug

 

[Doc McPeak]

I've had very good results with a two fold process. I use a 2L bladder on all ascents, kept inside the extra large interior pockets of my softshell. I keep the tube inside near the zipper and pull it out as needed. The winter package for my camelback always froze up and was abandoned. In my pack is a thermos of hot cocoa (never has needed extra insulation) and one to three bottles of warm liquid in coolies. If doing a loop or up and back, I'll almost always bury a liter or two along the way for the return trip. The snowpack trick has kept liquids warm for over eight hours. (Though you may want to hide them since occassionally people will snoop around and take them out and leave them on top of the snow!?! -- I guess thinking you must have buried them by mistake...)

If using a bladder, always bring at least one bottle. I've had to pour my bladder into a bottle to drink it when the tube froze up.

I have used a similar method to Kevin's with decent results, however make sure there is a good amount of liquid to start with. To stuff an empty bottle with snow and hope you can melt it inside your jacket did not work for me.

I got my EMS coolies at their club days for like $9 a piece, and I believe club days (20% off everything in the store) are just around the corner. I love my coolies and use them year round, they make awesome sandwich coolers for summer, too.

 

[DougPaul]

BTW - there's nothing wrong with eating snow (assuming it's clean, of course), especially when you're cranking uphill. Sure, it will cool you down somewhat, but you're moving and sweating anyway. It's an old wive's tale that eating snow is going to make you freeze up solid.

My understanding was the melting too much snow in your mouth was supposed to irritate the mucus membrane. But I don't remember where the info came from or how reliable it is. Eating icicles was supposed to be better.

Closest test that I do is to eat ice cream or popcicles. Never had any problem with either of them... Slurp.

Doug

 

[GlennS]

I usually carry hot Gatorade in the Nalgene bottles in winter. It's not as gross as it sounds.

Does anyone have any idea as to how much the sodium in the Gatorade lowers the freezing point? I'm assuming it's less than 32 degrees but chemistry never was my best subject.

 

[Doc McPeak]

My understanding was the melting too much snow in your mouth was supposed to irritate the mucus membrane. But I don't remember where the info came from or how reliable it is. Eating icicles was supposed to be better.
Doug

I can vouch that icicles are much more pleasing in the mouth than snow. Returning from Hough a couple of winters ago I ran out of water on the start of the ridge back toward the Beckhorn. I sucked balsam flavored icicles for the trek back (plenty of heat emenating from me to never get cooled down) and only once did I try a handful of snow. It felt like putting boiling acid in my mouth! I couldn't believe the burning sensation! Maybe it was the crystal form or the trapped air or the parched mouth but it sure was an eye opener.

Later that trip we filled our bottles straight from the Boquet by the Lean-to. My ice axe finally got used for something other than clearing snow monsters or braking my buttslides. Not recommended, but it helped get us back out of the woods. These days I plan ahead and drop and bury my return trip water bottles. You should only play giardia roulette so many times...

 

[Neil]

Hot tea.

What works for me is pouring boiling water into a Nalgene over a tea bag or two and lacing it with sugar or maple syrup. Then the OR water bottle jackets go on. One goes on my hip and the other gets wrapped up in clothing in my pack. I've given up on the bladders when it gets below 25F.
I have enjoyed slushy gator aid late in the day too.
And thanks Doc for the burial tip, I used it last year after learning it from you. The only thing is on the return leg I kept thinking I'd walked past it...(never did )

 

[ripple]

I have found a handwarmers work very well keeping the water in a liquid form. Just don't put the warmer directly on the bladder.

 

[skidoc22]

If all else fails...

For a very minimal weight penalty and a substantial safety asset I always bring a small solid fuel stove (esbit) with a few little fuel bricks during the winter. I carry it in a small camping coffee pot with my waterproof matches and lighter and a bit of coffee or tea. Even if you don't boil the water you can melt snow to refill and/or melt the water in the frozen Nalgene bottles. It may take a few minutes but in a pinch it may be worth it.

 

[Johnnycakes]

Eric Savage summed up most of what I had to say, but I'll add a few things.

I've also had very good success with a hydration bladder in the winter, and much prefer it. Like Glenn S, I fill mine with hot Gatorade (or similar). I find I drink more if the liquid isn't so cold, and if it's flavored.

I would suggest holding the tube over your head and pinching the bite valve to drain the tube, rather than blowing back into the tube. If you blow back into the tube too much you can actually pressurize your system, which will tend to force fluid back up the tube. It may also get to the point where you really can't blow that much more air back into the system because it is already full of air. This is unlikely to happen, but it can.

I keep the bladder in my pack (against my back) and bring the tube over my shoulder and put the bite down inside my jacket through the neck. I have never had a problem with this system, even at temperatures -20F and below. If I don't keep the bite valve inside my jacket, it will freeze up at very low temps, no matter how thoroughly I drain it. This is easily remedied by putting the valve in my mouth for a while, but it is easier to keep it from freezing up in the first place.

I second the idea of a backup in the form of 1 liter of liquid in an insulated Nalgene bottle. If you use a Platypus, it is not a bad idea to bring along a cap for your bladder. That way, if the tube does freeze, simple unscrew the tube cap/fixture, replace with the cap, and put the frozen tube/bite valve assembly inside your jacket to thaw. The bladder can stay inside your pack.

John