I Hate Down - Am I Missing Something?

[DayTrip]

I have never used down products in my entire life, primarily because of the cost, but have always read that they are awesome for cold weather - but have some drawbacks, particularly in the damp conditions of the NE. As I have become more serious hiking the past few years (and willing to spend more $$ on good gear) I've done a lot more reading on gear and down comes up over and over. After repeated LL Bean catalogs arrived at my house last year hailing their new 850 fill down jacket that resists moisture and receiving Backpacking Magazine honors I caved in and ordered one. When it finally arrived (after a horrific ordering experience from LL Bean which was most unexpected - but that is another story altogether) I took it for a spin on Mt Tom/Field/Willey on a very cold December day and I must say I was most unimpressed.

The coat is warm I guess but it is hardly durable as a exterior layer. After the first trip the threads were already pulling in places. So I decided it would be better as a layer underneath an exterior shell. However the heat from walking makes it sweat right through in the back from being against the backpack where I presume heat gets trapped. It then compresses quite a bit and doesn't seem all that warm anymore. And since it has compressed I'm getting the tiny feathers sticking out of the material in a few places. (The day I went out was around 0 deg F with light winds generally). I have a heavy wool North Face sweater that I would much rather have even though it is much heavier. I've only worn the jacket for three hikes (and not for the duration of any of them).

So to all the down advocates out there I ask: am I using the coat wrong? Should it be an outer layer? Should I only be throwing it on when I am not moving for warmth? This coat has to be the most disappointing piece of gear I have bought in recent years. It eventually "repuffs" if I leave it hanging in the house for awhile but compresses quite easily. Are there things I should be doing to the coat to maintain it when not in use (other than taking it out of pack so it doesn't get all crushed up)? Jacket was fairly expensive so I hate to reduce it to "letting the dog out on cold mornings duty" but I'm not seeing the benefit to having it. What am I missing? I know wool is much heavier but I think it performs WAY better. If the light weight of down is the only benefit I don't think I'll be carrying on winter hikes, just summer hikes where far less clothing is needed and the light weight is beneficial for the warmth jacket can provide.

 

[John H Swanson]

Yes. You are using it wrong. I advise against hiking in down or in any other puffy coat. They are two warm. You want to carry the puffy coat as emergency gear and wear other materials while hiking you need to balance your insulation with your metabolic rate I often hike in a skin layer and a light shirt. If you stop then you need to add a very warm layer because you are generating less heat. Then you later up with the down

 

[BobC]

I have an EMS down-filled jacket that I only carry in the winter as emergency gear - or I might consider pulling it out if I'm on a summit for an extended time and getting cold. I can't imagine hiking in it, I would get too hot. What I usually wear in the winter is a base layer polypro shirt,another long-sleeve wicking shirt over that, then a Mountain Hardwear Dragon jacket over that, which is pretty thin but has a hood and blocks the wind fairly well. Sometimes I'll add a 4th layer under the jacket if I'm still cold. But often, once I really get going, I take off the jacket, and have hiked many times in the winter with just the polypro base layer on top.

 

[peakbagger]

I will concur, Down is great for putting on at the summit when you are eating lunch, just about useless for active hiking. I also carry it for emergency purposes where I might be stationary as its the best warmth to weight ratio and can be packed to a small bundle. If it is packed tight for a trip, its needs to be unpacked and stored loose.

I do agree that the Down Tech coat at Beans is too lightweight construction and would get shredded in active use hiking. It sounds like you are not satisfied with it and should return it.

 

[Snowflea]

What the above posters said.

I have actually hiked in my puffy down jacket a couple of times: once on a very cold day on Mt Isolation where the mercury never got above minus 15 all day - too cold to eat or drink for the most part. Not fun.

The other instance was high on Denali - very cold and moving very slowly.

What *I* hate is receiving ~10 LL Bean catalogs within the past month. Grrr...!

 

[hikerfast]

down is for having in your pack for emergencies, or hanging around camp or a summit while not moving. it IS a nice piece of gear to have in your back just in case. and not some skinny down coat, you want something that makes you look like mr. cool aid when you are wearing it

 

[audrey]

I've never hiked up a mountain wearing a down jacket, but as soon as I stop I put it on and often wear it on the descent unless that too is strenuous. I used to generate lots of heat but not so much as I get older. It's also great for easy hikes without much elevation. And for walking around town...and at home when I can't seem to warm up. I guess I love mine!

 

[sierra]

Down is not as popular in NE because of the moisture issue. I synthetic parka will not fail you and adverse conditions, get your down wet and your done, its a sopping wet sponge. Granteed with a Gore-Tex shell over it, you might be fine, but I stay with synthetic materials for NH. I'm looking at replacing my old parka and will buy the " Das Parka" from Patagonia.

 

[JoeCedar]

The best use I have found for my emergency down jacket is to keep my 'later in the hike' water bottle warm for hours.

 

[DayTrip]

So I'll follow up with another stupid question: does the down need to be nearer the body to be effective? In particular, If I'm wearing a base layer, microfleece and Goretex shell like I generally climb in can I put the down coat on right over everything when I stop and retain heat or do I need to get out of the shell, add the down coat, put the shell back on, etc. I tend to get colder than most people so I try to avoid having to undress to dress whenever I stop an then have to reverse the process when I'm ready to get going again. If it is 0 deg and breezy I can guarantee I won't be warm wearing my base layer, a microfleece and this coat.

I sweat a lot when I climb and I get cold really easily so I usually botch my layering. I usually stop at treeline to "gear up" for the conditions and usually find myself shivering with cold hands during this stop. Once I get going again I'm fine. I can't seem to dress light enough to minimize the sweating and stay reasonably warm while I am ascending so I tend to wear too much stuff and put up with the moisture to stay warm (which I realize could be problematic). I would have to break out a jacket every single time I stopped for more than a minute which is quite tedious.

 

[jrbren]

I usually bring a down jacket with me when hiking 4Kers in the NE USA in winter. It rides at the top of my pack when hiking, each break the first thing I do is put it on over everything else. The last thing I do on break before hiking again is put it back onto the top of my pack. Anything down I make sure is stored in a water proof bag so it does not get wet (my pack is lined with a trash compactor bag, the down jacket needs to be inside that, to avoid snow falling onto the top of my pack (usually from brushing against trees) and then melting). The brushing up against trees thing is a reason to not wear it when hiking in the NE below tree line, snags would tear it to shreds. I have worn it hiking when it is very cold above tree line before, for example 1 year ago I was in Ecuador and wore it the 1000 feet or so (elevation gain) on Antisana. Net: down is very effective for cold & dry conditions and when used correctly (kept dry). If I am carrying my down sleeping bag that is also carried inside a waterproof compression stuff sack. Any EMS or REI outdoor gear type store could set you up with that. It is useless for 33 degrees and raining. And no, down against the body does not sound like a good idea. I would want a wicking layer against the skin.

 

[Tim Seaver]

Down is great when it's dry. I almost always bring a big puffy one for the summit area or doing photography.

Related to this: Patagonia has developed a water-hating down:

The down industry is getting a kick in the pants as new technologies emerge to address the shortcomings of feathers. In 2012 DriDown and DownTek came out with technology that treats down with a chemical polymer that makes it hydrophobic—instead of the down balling up like a wad of used tissues when it gets wet, the feathers retain loft.

The technology being employed in the Encapsil Parka is drastically different. The down is sent through a vacuum and agitated with low-level radio frequency waves, causing the feathers to poof out beyond their natural shape. Then the down is plasma-treated to give it hydrophobic properties. Until now, the very best naturally occurring down could only expect to reach a loft of 800, possibly 900, fill power. This new technology has yielded 1,000-fill down, a significant and very cool innovation.

I tested the Encapsil in negative-degree temperatures and wet, heavy snowfall. My upper body was never cold while wearing this thing and I was surprised to find that it was just as warm as another expedition-grade down jacket I own that is more than twice as heavy and three times as bulky. In a very wet snowfall, the nylon exterior did a good job of beading up water, but ultimately, the jacket began to feel wet. Yet the down retained its shape and loft. When I got back inside, I crumpled the wet jacket and watched as it puffed back up..

It's a very expensive and limited technology at the moment, but I hope this will lead to similar lower cost versions down the line.

 

[summitseeker]

I prefer a Primaloft fill for a jacket. It is synthetic so even when it is wet it will help retain body heat. I bought an EMS Heater jacket on sale for $50 last winter and it lives in my pack in a dry bag. I have only had to break it out once after a long summit stay on Washington after ascending Jefferson as well. It was a life saver and well worth all the lugging about.

Primaloft is my go to, IMHO.
http://exploreitoutdoors.com/2010/01/08/ems-primaloft-heater-sync-jacket/

I didn't even read this article but here is a pic.

Z

 

[Raven]

I agree with everyone else here.

I carry a 700 weight down jacket from Cabela's. It stays in the pack and makes an appearance when I take a long break on a summit or along the trail on cold days. It allowed a friend and I to enjoy a 15 minute food break on a cold day. I cannot hike in it, as it is way too hot too quickly and gets damp. But nothing beats it for capturing that heat you are still cranking out at the summit on arrival.

I stop on a cold day, down comes on, heat stays in, I stay happy.

 

[cushetunk]

If I'm wearing a base layer, microfleece and Goretex shell like I generally climb in can I put the down coat on right over everything when I stop and retain heat or do I need to get out of the shell, add the down coat, put the shell back on, etc.
(...)
I sweat a lot when I climb and I get cold really easily so I usually botch my layering. I usually stop at treeline to "gear up" for the conditions and usually find myself shivering with cold hands during this stop. Once I get going again I'm fine. I can't seem to dress light enough to minimize the sweating and stay reasonably warm while I am ascending so I tend to wear too much stuff and put up with the moisture to stay warm (which I realize could be problematic). I would have to break out a jacket every single time I stopped for more than a minute which is quite tedious.

I think what you describe -- pulling the down coat on over all your layers, including any shells -- is the best use for these coats in almost all conditions. As you say, you can't always add it when you stop, but I always make a point of adding a puffy coat if I stop for more than a few minutes. Even though I might be warm to start, that heat will fade rapidly, and I want to stay ahead of that.

On the flip side, it does sound like you may be wearing too many layers for hiking, and then getting chilled because your clothes are damp. You shouldn't be shivering when you change layers. Starting out so you avoid sweating may help avoid being cold later. I avoid goretex jackets for hiking like the plague, unless it is raining or snowing hard or very windy.

One final thought, when going above treeline, it is easy to assume that conditions will be dramatically worse when in fact they are identical to hiking below treeline but with a touch more wind. In these cases I may just add a shell, and keep going -- no need to batten down the hatches when it would just result in more sweating.

Hope that helps.

 

[hikingmaineac]

When hiking uphill (below the treeline) I almost never need more than a long-sleeved base-layer (often with the sleeves rolled up). On colder, less sunny days - or above the treeline - I might add a soft-shell outer layer with the front and armpits fully un-zipped. Like cushetunk, I try to avoid sweating as much as possible without shivering. Wearing a headband instead of a hat and thin wool gloves/mittens helps with this as well.

As others have mentioned, for prolonged stops and windy, cold, or dark descents I will sometimes put my down jacket. On the way down a mountain, I like to wear it beneath a (1998, $19 LL Bean Employee Store) Gore-tex outer layer. I wear the Gore-tex "on top" because it is parka-length and keeps the snow and breeze out of my lower back and pants - especially when I'm sledding down the trail. Also, as you mentioned, the fabric exterior of the down jacket just isn't very durable.

Hiking with the puffy down jacket and the Gore-text stuffed in my pack along with a couple of spare, long-sleeved base/mid layers is usually what I pack for keeping my core warm on an average winter 4k hike.

I'm not saying it's the right approach, but I also look at my (2001, $65 LL Bean) puffy (not nano) down jacket as a compromise for not bringing an emergency sleeping bag on day hikes.

 

[DougPaul]

The many other posters are correct, in the NE a down/big polyester jacket should only be needed during long stops. For short stops, putting it on over all your other clothing is appropriate because it is fast on and fast off (unless there is precip, in which case put it under your hard shell), but when camping I put it under my hard shell to protect the jacket and to keep snow off it.

I typically hike with a fleece vest, two fleece jackets (one wind blocking), and a parka-length hard shell*. (The wind blocking fleece jacket can be used as a soft shell.) This is versatile enough (I range from wearing all of it to wearing none of it) and warm enough that I have never needed to hike in my down jacket even on days with a high of -15F.

* The hard shell is sized to fit over a down jacket.

FWIW: I very rarely use a down jacket (I call my heavy one (4 inch loft) my "sleeping bag with sleeves"... ) on dayhikes. In winter school we were taught to keep our stops short enough that we wouldn't cool down enough to require the down--there are short stops and long stops, but no intermediate stops because of the time required to take out and stow the down.

BTW, I have had no difficulty keeping my down jackets dry here in the NE. However, if I hiked in the Pacific North West (which is much wetter than the NE), I'd most likely use polyester-filled jackets.

Doug

 

[mirabela]

Yup. Puffy over everything the instant I stop; for longer stops, or when in camp, get rid of the shell, so it's base layer>mid insulation>puffy, and possible a shell over all that.

That said, it can be tough to keep down from getting damp anyway. Even just throwing it on at breaks, etc., its loft can deteriorate considerably over the course of a day. I vastly prefer primaloft -- that stuff is absolutely the bomb. It weighs a little more than down and doesn't compress quite as well, but the advantages are more than worth it IMO. A lighter (60g) primaloft jacket is good for downhill travel where you're not sweating much. A heavier one (100g or 140g) makes a good break or camp layer. Layer them, and it's the equivalent of a gigantic down coat.

 

[sardog1]

Yes, you're using it wrong. You need to add twenty degrees of latitude or twenty degrees of longitude for it to be useful while moving, and then only when the wind is howling and the mercury is nowhere near zero.

I have an 850 fill Marmot parka that comes out only on special occasions. None of them involve moving around in New Hampshire.

 

[TJsName]

Daytrip, It sounds like you might be. I love my down, and I use it as described by most people in this thread. I also will put it on in the parking lot if I am cold while getting reading, and once I am warm (not hot) I will take it off. I don't have an absolute rules around it though. If I am really cold, I'll put it on. It's just another piece in the layer arsenal. For what is weighs, it's definitely worth carrying as a back-up if nothing else. As Joe mentioned, it is great way to keep extra liquids from getting cold.

As for other uses, I wore is skiing last night and it was really comfortable. I wore my wind/rain shell over it and I was quite happy.