I wonder if Garmin will be refreshing its hiking gps line any time soon?

[iAmKrzys]

I just got an REI catalog and they are advertising eTrex 30x Topo bundle for $200 (on sale from 11/13 till 11/23 in case you don't mind smaller screen size.) That makes me wonder if REI is trying to clear inventory ahead of a possible eTrex line refresh? Or maybe they are just really nice ahead of holiday season?

 

[jniehof]

They're also listing the just-released (earlier this year) 920XT for $150 off (or maybe it was $125). I suspect they're just trying to catch some holiday dollars and make up for a bit of an off year, what with poor availability on the fenix 3 and Epix, and the GPS reliability disaster on the fenix 3.

 

[Remix]

Please provide more info on the fenix 3 "gps reliability" issue...I was thinking about getting one of these

 

[1SlowHiker]

I just got an REI catalog and they are advertising eTrex 30x Topo bundle for $200 (on sale from 11/13 till 11/23 in case you don't mind smaller screen size.)

I picked up an etrex 30 to replace my old GPSmap76cx which still works great but all the lettering has worn off and it is a bit heavy and bulky for hiking (originally got it for sailing). I had to return the etrex30 because I could not get used to the toggle control - could not push straight down for "enter" without using two hands. Am I the only one that has this problem. It wasn't the unit either because I tried a friends and still could not "enter". Any recommendations for a different unit near the same price (<$300). Non touch screen because I winter hike.

 

[Remix]

The Garmin 64st is at an Amazon all time low price, at $279 but could go back up instantaneously.

Here is a tip: go to www.camelcamelcamel.com (3 camels), enter the Amazon product you want to buy, and set up an email to be sent when the price gets acceptable. On the camelcamelcamel site, you will see a price history of this product to decide what is reasonable.

The price history shows that part of Amazon's "secret sauce" is that they drop prices when people stop buying, and raise them a bit (and then more, and then more) as buying picks up. I guess Garmin is too afraid to try and (legally) give Amazon disincentives for not using pricing that Garmin suggests.

Here is an example for the Garmin 64st, oops it looks like they raised the price a little...see below

Again, no need to keep coming back to camel....it will send you an email when the Amazon price is less than your target price.



PS- I would not be surprised at all if Camel was Amazon.

 

[DougPaul]

I picked up an etrex 30 to replace my old GPSmap76cx which still works great but all the lettering has worn off and it is a bit heavy and bulky for hiking (originally got it for sailing). I had to return the etrex30 because I could not get used to the toggle control - could not push straight down for "enter" without using two hands. Am I the only one that has this problem. It wasn't the unit either because I tried a friends and still could not "enter". Any recommendations for a different unit near the same price (<$300). Non touch screen because I winter hike.

There were some reliability problems with the click-stick for early eTrex models which are hopefully cured by now. Hadn't heard any complaints of difficulty operating them. (But maybe improving the reliability made them harder to operate...)

I've continued using my 60CSx (similar to the 76cx). It works well enough (ie very well) that I continue using it. I also have a 62s which I only use occasionally. I expect that I will continue using 60CSx unless some new "gotta-have-it" feature appears in a follow-on model. The closest of the current models is the 64 series.

Doug

 

[Remix]

There were some reliability problems with the click-stick for early eTrex models which are hopefully cured by now. Hadn't heard any complaints of difficulty operating them. (But maybe improving the reliability made them harder to operate...)

I've continued using my 60CSx (similar to the 76cx). It works well enough (ie very well) that I continue using it. I also have a 62s which I only use occasionally. I expect that I will continue using 60CSx unless some new "gotta-have-it" feature appears in a follow-on model. The closest of the current models is the 64 series.

Doug

Well you could be a GLONASS pioneer with the 64st, although I understand some of the things they fly in the Middle East dont end up in the right country.

 

[Remix]

deleted duplicate post (must be the new browser)

 

[jniehof]

Please provide more info on the fenix 3 "gps reliability" issue...I was thinking about getting one of these

There's a hundred-page "GPS accuracy issues" thread in the Garmin fenix 3 forum. The pace data is definitely garbage...now that they've got footpod pace working properly, I've switched over to that. So it's really hard to recommend for running. People who've been using it extensively in the woods have not been happy with absolute positional accuracy. I had it give a distance over half a mile short coming out from Rocky Branch Shelter #2 to Rte 16.

I'm on my second one and it doesn't seem to have improved. I'm not sure about sending it back to Garmin again...it's very unclear to what extent there's a large "bad batch" vs. the whole line being poorly designed. Substantially worse in track accuracy, distance, and pace than my 310XT. The problem seems to be trees. Curves under trees are particularly bad.

I absolutely would not rely on it for actual navigation.

 

[Remix]

There's a hundred-page "GPS accuracy issues" thread in the Garmin fenix 3 forum. The pace data is definitely garbage...now that they've got footpod pace working properly, I've switched over to that. So it's really hard to recommend for running. People who've been using it extensively in the woods have not been happy with absolute positional accuracy. I had it give a distance over half a mile short coming out from Rocky Branch Shelter #2 to Rte 16.

I'm on my second one and it doesn't seem to have improved. I'm not sure about sending it back to Garmin again...it's very unclear to what extent there's a large "bad batch" vs. the whole line being poorly designed. Substantially worse in track accuracy, distance, and pace than my 310XT. The problem seems to be trees. Curves under trees are particularly bad.

I absolutely would not rely on it for actual navigation.

Thanks, its off my list for year or more.....

 

[DougPaul]

Well you could be a GLONASS pioneer with the 64st, although I understand some of the things they fly in the Middle East dont end up in the right country.

Yes, the 64 series receives signals from the Russian GLONASS satellites as well as the American GPS satellites. (When the European Gallieo system is operational, it will be added to the next models of GPS receivers.)

I've read claims that the GLONASS signals are easier to receive inside buildings than GPS signals, but haven't attempted to verify the claims.

In any case, GPS alone works well enough for me that I feel no need to upgrade at this time. (An upgrade would be several hundred dollars for only a small improvement in performance...) And, IMO, the 62 series is a mixture of upgrades and downgrades from the 60 series. The 64 and later series are likely to be additional mixtures.

Doug

 

[iAmKrzys]

I had to return the etrex30 because I could not get used to the toggle control - could not push straight down for "enter" without using two hands.

That's a bit surprising - maybe you got a defective unit? I have 2 eTrex models (30 & HCx) and I haven't had any problems with toggle control with either one of them, even when wearing gloves. I usually operate them with one hand.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

I find the toggle on the etrex 30 a bit troublesome to use as well. I have big hands, if that matters.

Tim

 

[1SlowHiker]

I find the toggle on the etrex 30 a bit troublesome to use as well. I have big hands, if that matters.

Tim

Maybe my problem is that I don't text much so I don't have the dexterity in my thumb that a texter might have

 

[CaptCaper]

I've been using the Montana 600 for years now thru out the year. Nice unit..no issues. The Montana is the best hiking unit out of many I've had since 1998...use an Gilsson external antenna on the top of my pack and tuck the Montana away on my front strap in a pouch..record the whole day.. use it in the winter for my snow machines as well.. Got saved all day tracks and data for the hikes back to 1998 of course most of the 48 and then some..
Bought the new 610 Montana as money is no issue for me upgrading these units as long as I get something for the buck. Glonass provides better coverage in extreme conditions. For the extra ounces of weight of the Montana it's worth it for me.

 

[DayTrip]

I've been using the Montana 600 for years now thru out the year. Nice unit..no issues. The Montana is the best hiking unit out of many I've had since 1998...use an Gilsson external antenna on the top of my pack and tuck the Montana away on my front strap in a pouch..record the whole day.. use it in the winter for my snow machines as well.. Got saved all day tracks and data for the hikes back to 1998 of course most of the 48 and then some..
Bought the new 610 Montana as money is no issue for me upgrading these units as long as I get something for the buck. Glonass provides better coverage in extreme conditions. For the extra ounces of weight of the Montana it's worth it for me.

Glonass antenna? Not familiar with this. Is this some sort of way to improve signal on any GPS or just the particular model you have? I did a quick Google search and they appear inexpensive but I assume there is more than meets the eye. Can they be added to any GPS for improved reception in very deep forest cover or very foul weather (i.e. in an emergency situation like people caught in a blizzard above treeline)?

No need to expound on all the details if it goes beyond the "plug it into your GPS and enjoy" realm. Not overly tech savvy.

 

[CaptCaper]

Glonass antenna? Not familiar with this. Is this some sort of way to improve signal on any GPS or just the particular model you have? I did a quick Google search and they appear inexpensive but I assume there is more than meets the eye. Can they be added to any GPS for improved reception in very deep forest cover or very foul weather (i.e. in an emergency situation like people caught in a blizzard above treeline)?

No need to expound on all the details if it goes beyond the "plug it into your GPS and enjoy" realm. Not overly tech savvy.

The more you have a clear view of the sky at the GPS the more you will receive satellites. Glonass/Gps combo units give you more birds (satellites) to receive in the pattern one would need for accuracy. As gps alone may not have a good pattern for that particular day or hour.
I have no trouble receiving gps satellites under tree cover here in NH with an external top of the pack mount on most of my many hikes thru the years. I would have no trouble receiving satellites in a blizzard.
No I said Gilsson antenna...it is just an mini external antenna with spaghetti like wire to the gps unit. It has 28db of gain which helps with signal. The Garmin unit or any other brand must have the capability to receive glonass as well as gps.. The Gilssons will work with the new glonass/gps combo units like the Montana 610. Even thou Gilsson's site doesn't state that. I did some tests with a standard issue Gilsson that I've had for my Garmin Montana 600 (just gps) and a Glonass/GPS combo antenna I acquired for the Montana 610 (glonass/gps combo) and found no difference in receiving the Glonass satellites.
Your must have a external antenna jack to use any of those antennas. Some units don't have that capability. Montana does have an external antenna jack.
With an antenna on top of the pack you have a better view of the sky tracking satellites and be able tuck the gps away in your pocket or what ever. On all of my gpsr's I've had this system will track well on most hikes in New Hamphires moutains and tree cover. At least using Garmin products which is all I've owned except for my Northstar Marine commercial unit.
Hiking in Keyhole Canyon at Zion might kill all satellite signals being what it is....I won't be going to that ever. Ha...past my skill level. I was there when the 7 folks died this fall in Keyhole.
In the past folks have polked fun and carry on with blah blah stuff at my Gilsson but I have and still make great saved tracks and saved stuff back to the 90's of most NH mountains..I often go back and look at the data or reload the track's for winter snow hikes to follow..

 

[DougPaul]

The more you have a clear view of the sky at the GPS the more you will receive satellites. Glonass/Gps combo units give you more birds (satellites) to receive in the pattern one would need for accuracy. As gps alone may not have a good pattern for that particular day or hour.

The positions (constellation) of the satellites are also important. The orbits of the GPS satellites are designed to minimize the incidence of poor constellations. (GLONASS may be better in the polar regions due to a higher orbital inclination.) Of course, local objects can block the line of sight to a satellite and reflections (multipath) can degrade the signals.

I have no trouble receiving gps satellites under tree cover here in NH with an external top of the pack mount on most of my many hikes thru the years. I would have no trouble receiving satellites in a blizzard.

I also have no trouble receiving GPS signals in typical NE hiking locations with my 60CSx carried in the top of my pack. (Any of Garmin's "high sensitivity" GPSes should be similar.) I did have occasional trouble in similar conditions with earlier non-"high sensitivity" Garmin GPSes.

The GPS signal frequencies were chosen to minimize any weather effects. The L1 signal has a wavelength of ~19cm so airborne precipitation particles have essentially no effect because they are so much smaller than the wavelength.

No I said Gilsson antenna...it is just an mini external antenna with spaghetti like wire to the gps unit. It has 28db of gain which helps with signal. The Garmin unit or any other brand must have the capability to receive glonass as well as gps.. The Gilssons will work with the new glonass/gps combo units like the Montana 610. Even thou Gilsson's site doesn't state that. I did some tests with a standard issue Gilsson that I've had for my Garmin Montana 600 (just gps) and a Glonass/GPS combo antenna I acquired for the Montana 610 (glonass/gps combo) and found no difference in receiving the Glonass satellites.

The Garmin L1 signal is at 1575.42 MHz and the GLONASS L1 signals are centered on 1602 MHz (1598--1605MHz). The bandwidth of the Gilsson antenna is 17MHz (ie .1575.42 +- 8.5MHz)*. So the GLONASS signals are technically outside the antenna bandwidth, but your experiments suggest that it still works well enough.
* http://www.gilsson.com/high_performance_gps.htm

A primary determinant of performance for a weak-signal receiver (eg a GPSr) is the signal-to-noise ratio (S/N). The primary purpose of the amplifier in an external antenna is to offset the losses in the cable. Both the GPS and the external antenna connect the physical antenna directly to a low-noise amplifier (LNA)--the antenna supplies the signal and the LNA the noise. If you used an external antenna without the built-in LNA, the S/N would be degraded by the cable losses (significant at these frequencies for typical cable lengths) between the antenna and the LNA in the GPSr. If there were no loss between the external antenna and the LNA in the GPSr, then there would be no need for an amplifier in the antenna. Too much gain in an external amplifier can actually degrade performance by overloading the GPSr.

With an antenna on top of the pack you have a better view of the sky tracking satellites and be able tuck the gps away in your pocket or what ever. On all of my gpsr's I've had this system will track well on most hikes in New Hamphires moutains and tree cover.

True, however mounting an external antenna on top of your hat may be even better (unless your pack is unusually tall). Professional users often use a choke ring antenna (looks like a ~1ft diameter disk) on a pole to keep the antenna above both their head and pack.

I use an external antenna (similar to the Gilsson) on top of my hat when mapping a trail, but for hiking, just put the GPS in the top of my pack. Works well enough for my 60CSx and 62s (I have observed no problems with the recorded track) and no delicate cables to kink or snag. If I want the best available accuracy for a short period, all I have to do is take it out of my pack and hold it up over my head with the antenna oriented for best reception. (Best orientation depends on the type of antenna and how it is mounted inside the GPSr.)

Doug

 

[CaptCaper]

The positions (constellation) of the satellites are also important. The orbits of the GPS satellites are designed to minimize the incidence of poor constellations. (GLONASS may be better in the polar regions due to a higher orbital inclination.) Of course, local objects can block the line of sight to a satellite and reflections (multipath) can degrade the signals.


I also have no trouble receiving GPS signals in typical NE hiking locations with my 60CSx carried in the top of my pack. (Any of Garmin's "high sensitivity" GPSes should be similar.) I did have occasional trouble in similar conditions with earlier non-"high sensitivity" Garmin GPSes.

The GPS signal frequencies were chosen to minimize any weather effects. The L1 signal has a wavelength of ~19cm so airborne precipitation particles have essentially no effect because they are so much smaller than the wavelength.


The Garmin L1 signal is at 1575.42 MHz and the GLONASS L1 signals are centered on 1602 MHz (1598--1605MHz). The bandwidth of the Gilsson antenna is 17MHz (ie .1575.42 +- 8.5MHz)*. So the GLONASS signals are technically outside the antenna bandwidth, but your experiments suggest that it still works well enough.
* http://www.gilsson.com/high_performance_gps.htm

A primary determinant of performance for a weak-signal receiver (eg a GPSr) is the signal-to-noise ratio (S/N). The primary purpose of the amplifier in an external antenna is to offset the losses in the cable. Both the GPS and the external antenna connect the physical antenna directly to a low-noise amplifier (LNA)--the antenna supplies the signal and the LNA the noise. If you used an external antenna without the built-in LNA, the S/N would be degraded by the cable losses (significant at these frequencies for typical cable lengths) between the antenna and the LNA in the GPSr. If there were no loss between the external antenna and the LNA in the GPSr, then there would be no need for an amplifier in the antenna. Too much gain in an external amplifier can actually degrade performance by overloading the GPSr.


True, however mounting an external antenna on top of your hat may be even better (unless your pack is unusually tall). Professional users often use a choke ring antenna (looks like a ~1ft diameter disk) on a pole to keep the antenna above both their head and pack.

I use an external antenna (similar to the Gilsson) on top of my hat when mapping a trail, but for hiking, just put the GPS in the top of my pack. Works well enough for my 60CSx and 62s (I have observed no problems with the recorded track) and no delicate cables to kink or snag. If I want the best available accuracy for a short period, all I have to do is take it out of my pack and hold it up over my head with the antenna oriented for best reception. (Best orientation depends on the type of antenna and how it is mounted inside the GPSr.)

Doug

I owned two 60CX's at one point... I can confirm the best all day hike recording is with an external on the top of the pack. Any other place like in a pocket or in a pack will give poorer results on many hikes... As you can tell I'm fanatical about recording and preserving my hikes and snow machine trail tracks. My extensive library of saved tracks back to 1996 proves this...Don't even ask me about my "New England" ship wreck Loran and GPS library...back to 1996.
I am not into poorer results...been there done that...