Is Bushwhacking for you ??

[sierra]

At one point the board members here agreed to keeping GPS tracks out of the public forums on this board and to only share via PM’s. Not sure if that is still the case. Did Stinkyfeet turn into a Snowflea?

I might be wrong, but I think when she did her Grid in a year. She went in with stinkyfeet and came out a snowflea.

 

[peakbagger]

I was under the impression that for some devices, tracks were uploaded automatically, with the only notice that this was happening being on page 14 of the 20 page "terms and conditions" that no one reads that you need to agree to in order to get the device to work.

I'd like it very much if I were wrong about this.

TomK

Unfortunately I think you are right. The issue appears the devices were set by default to share the tracks. I expect its two fold, getting all this data out there for folks to see entices them to buy the device and its a potential source of revenue to the company that makes it. As Facebook users found out with respect to third party aps as if was not real obvious before, every bit of data a user might generate is cataloged to to build up a deeper database on users which is then sold to marketers. Instead of paying cash for aps, folks pay with their personal information. Same goes for Google.

 

[bikehikeskifish]

NOTE TO SELF: ==> If you are not paying for it, you are not the customer <==

Tim

 

[JoshandBaron]

There are still plenty of spots "off the grid" to visit. I expect there are some folks that scour Google Earth looking for ledges and rock outcroppings for possible destinations. Given the long term trend of the FS abandoning trails and tearing out bridges, I expect that the more remote areas of the whites will get abandoned as access gets more difficult.

Bear Pond is an interesting example, the public web didnt exist when Dan Doane published his book describing the hike. I have heard it was controversial but expect the controversy would have been on rec.backcountry with a far smaller audience.

My thing is ponds and I rarely use anything other than satellite images to find those. I would love to read his route description for Bear Pond. It's probably the same as the standard route most people take these days but I haven't had any luck finding it in past interweb searches.

 

[Neil]

Add an altimeter to the map and compass and you can almost always pin-point your position on the map. Takes practice and maintenance though.

Would solo bushwhacking (with no GPS) be considered reckless in NH?

 

[peakbagger]

Add an altimeter to the map and compass and you can almost always pin-point your position on the map. Takes practice and maintenance though.

Would solo bushwhacking (with no GPS) be considered reckless in NH?

At one point a NH Fish and Game employee made a blanket statement that "bushwhacking was reckless". It was in regard to a winter hike gone bad. As far as I am aware there is no written determination of when a hiker (or other outdoor sports person) make the transition from "incompetent" to "reckless". Realistically lost "incompetent" hikers frequently go off trail into conditions that approximate a bushwhack.

IMHO it does seem to be a very arbitrary process on if an when a rescue makes the transition. There is an appeal process in place but due to the low volume of rescues that have been appealed I don't think a clear line has been established. My guess is if someone has bought a Hike Safe card, from a PR point of view F&G would tend not to make a "reckless" determination unless a very clear line was crossed. Given the low volume of sales of these cards, I do not believe there has been case where a hike safe card holder has been deemed "reckless" and expect that the limited number of purchasers tend to fall towards the less prone to need a rescue class. I also believe that F&Gs determinations may be politically and PR motivated. If the budget is running low and F&G is in the budgeting process I expect they will take advantage of media attention to a rescue to emphasize the potential financial consequences of a rescue.

I expect the recent "rescue" of a hiker who was found checked in at the Mt Washington Hotel could raise some interesting issues. F&G claims they will be billing for costs including a helicopter and the hiker should have made sure that a message sent to the person requesting the rescue had gone through. In this situation the hiker was never in harm and didn't even know he was the subject of a rescue. He most likely wasn't reckless while hiking. I doubt he had a Hike Safe card but the question is if he did, would he be billed?

 

[TCD]

In a 2013 thread:

http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthre...iversity-study&p=395400&viewfull=1#post395400

"We will NEVER solve the problem if we spend any time trying to decide what was an "accident" and what was "recklessness" - that's just job security for lawyers."

And it looks like it's headed that way. Fortunately, there are not actually that many rescues, so this has not become a problem yet, except for the people directly involved.

 

[Puma concolor]

Well, there is certainly an added element of risk in bushwhacking versus trail hiking. And there are levels to the risk based on the difficulty of the bushwhack being undertaken. Whether or not that risk approaches the “reckless” level, IMHO, is entirely dependent on the developed skills the individual undertaking the bushwhack brings to the table.

In NY (my home state), there is a legal definition of reckless, which is rather vague, but one of the key sentences in said defintion (as defined in the Penal Law) is:

“The risk must be of such nature and degree that disregard thereof constitutes a gross deviation from the standard of conduct that a reasonable person would observe in the situation.”

So for me, if you were to apply that to hiking, it all comes down to personal history. What is way out of the comfort zone for one person may be like a run to get milk at Stewarts for another.

As to the GPS “following the beeps” line-of-discussion, I mostly agree that it kind of sucks the challenge out of it. But would also add to each his/her own. I would rate my own bushwhacking skills as maybe a 7/10. As a non-GPS-using soloist, I have been mega uncomfortable on more than a couple of occasions. You know that “oh sh**” kind of feeling as you realize that you have one more chance to get this right before getting benighted. Have always managed to work through it though. Knock on wood.

(Have completed two Northeast lists that include bushwhack peaks ... Catskill 3500 Club and New England Hundred Highest.)

 

[Neil]

I don't understand why the mention of bushwhacking always results in anti-GPS posts. Bushwhacking and map and compass navigation can be dissociated. I have worked hard at developing and honing map and compass skills and I see the Nav part of bushwhacking as being a separate experience. The pleasure of being in the hills away from trails does not have to be dependent on not having a GPS nor does it have to be diminished by having one. You can think of it a bit like going out with someone who handles the navigation. I think the wonder of the off-trail experience would be the same.

Add map and compass navigation to off-trail hiking and now you have two things instead of one going on. 1- The fun and satisfaction of solving the problem of maintaining position and determining desired direction of travel. 2- Being in and enjoying the woods.
Hiking the same trails to the same peaks over and over has the potential to get tedious. Exploring off-trail never gets boring or repetitious - for me anyway, whether I use a map and compass or augment those tools with GPS.

As for safety I have had more mishaps and falls on trailed hikes than on bushwhacks and I spend about the same number of hours on each. But, if you do become immobilized your chances of a quick rescue are obviously much higher on a trail.

I wonder, are GPS's so accurate now that if I record a tracklog in one unit, load it into a second unit and re-do the hike will I walk on the exact same ground? Or is there a degree of latitude, say 10 yards wide?

 

[Puma concolor]

^^^^

I guess it’s all about the kind of experience you seek. My passing comment in my first post was hardly meant as a criticism of those who use GPS technology, but more of a statement of a basic philosophical difference. I go to the mountains largely to get away from the modern world and (as a peakbagger) enjoy a feeling of being on a roughly similar playing field as prior generations of peakbaggers. GPS technology is not conducive with either of these goals.

But that’s not to say that I don’t see the appeal of it to many. If GPS allows some people to expand their personal adventure limits and/or gives them an added layer of feeling safe, that’s cool. Like I also said, to each his/her own.

 

[rvfvftt]

RVF Here I started this post because I was just looking for a Bushwhacking partner (still am)

Lots of interesting comments on the subject WOW

As I noted I wanted something different than the same old peaks over and over. I have some experience on the trail (NH48, NE67, NEHH, NW48 winter, North East 115) but was looking to improve my navigation skills. So, about a month back I started hiking to some smaller lesser known peaks that include some off-trail navigation challenges. I have done Russell, Cone, Snows, Cilley and Peaked Hill yesterday. None of these were Big 4k’s which is why apparently no one has come with me on these hikes. But these small peaks although small do presented challenges.

My primary navigation tools are my map compass, watch and altimeter. I start with research on-line to get a detailed review of the topography of the mountain. I make notes of items I will (hopefully) see streams, ravines, ponds, cliffs or even flat expanses. Print a map with Cal Tops listing landmarks, elevations, distances and bearings. This is my primary too to the summit. I do occasionally check the GPS to ensure I am where I think I am but it’s not my primary tool. Many individuals tell me I am crazy to do this alone but I find it fun and exciting.

I would still prefer a partner but I will continue Hiking alone If I don’t get one. from a safety point of view, I leave my Cal Topo map and hiking plan at home on the table I also leave a copy on the windshield of my vehicle. I carry an In Reach PLB that tracks my position as I hike and transmits that to a few selected friends. I have my iPhone) loaded with the GIA mapping app (turned off in my pack and have not needed) I always carry enough gear to spend a night out in the woods. I always sign off at the end of my hikes with an “off the Mountain Text “so everyone knows one I am not in danger or lost.
Is that a definition of reckless??
Feedback Please
RVF

 

[CaptCaper]

I don't understand why the mention of bushwhacking always results in anti-GPS posts. Bushwhacking and map and compass navigation can be dissociated. I have worked hard at developing and honing map and compass skills and I see the Nav part of bushwhacking as being a separate experience. The pleasure of being in the hills away from trails does not have to be dependent on not having a GPS nor does it have to be diminished by having one. You can think of it a bit like going out with someone who handles the navigation. I think the wonder of the off-trail experience would be the same.

Add map and compass navigation to off-trail hiking and now you have two things instead of one going on. 1- The fun and satisfaction of solving the problem of maintaining position and determining desired direction of travel. 2- Being in and enjoying the woods.
Hiking the same trails to the same peaks over and over has the potential to get tedious. Exploring off-trail never gets boring or repetitious - for me anyway, whether I use a map and compass or augment those tools with GPS.

As for safety I have had more mishaps and falls on trailed hikes than on bushwhacks and I spend about the same number of hours on each. But, if you do become immobilized your chances of a quick rescue are obviously much higher on a trail.

I wonder, are GPS's so accurate now that if I record a tracklog in one unit, load it into a second unit and re-do the hike will I walk on the exact same ground? Or is there a degree of latitude, say 10 yards wide?

You could be 10 yards off with the gps you recorded the track on. But as a rule of thumb you will get good results with transferring tracks. I have tracks since the 1990's I saved and have gone thru many GPS's since.. I still use those tracks on my latest units with good results when I want to go back on long ago hikes.

 

[DougPaul]

I wonder, are GPS's so accurate now that if I record a tracklog in one unit, load it into a second unit and re-do the hike will I walk on the exact same ground? Or is there a degree of latitude, say 10 yards wide?

Close enough with modern GPSes. The nominal accuracy of a consumer GPS is 95% probability of being within 10 meters of the true location.

A while ago, I posted two tests of repeatability in the field: http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?14406-Bakeoff-plus-Tecumseh-hike and http://www.vftt.org/forums/showthread.php?15025-GPS-Bakeoff-2 . In the first test, the average difference between the track recorded inbound on a hike and outbound (by the same trail) was 4.6 meters for a 60CSx.

Doug

 

[Neil]

From a safety point of view, I leave my Cal Topo map and hiking plan at home on the table I also leave a copy on the windshield of my vehicle. I carry an In Reach PLB that tracks my position as I hike and transmits that to a few selected friends. I have my iPhone) loaded with the GIA mapping app (turned off in my pack and have not needed) I always carry enough gear to spend a night out in the woods. I always sign off at the end of my hikes with an “off the Mountain Text “so everyone knows one I am not in danger or lost.
Is that a definition of reckless??
Feedback Please
RVF

Doesn't strike me as reckless but I'm obviously biased and am not deciding anything. Ie. Who knows, a lawyer working for an accident insurance company would be paid to save the company money and might try and argue that if you had to take all those precautions then it must be a dangerous activity. Or that hiking off-trail alone is plumb crazy.

I used to go on all-day bushwhacks alone with no device other than a wristwatch. I would leave my intended route traced on a map on my computer. I enjoyed the untethered feeling and the heightened awareness I got from it. But then I decided it was unfair to make my wife worry and I got a Spot device. She can follow my progress and see when I am out. The advantage to me was I no longer had to stick to my proscribed route. Eventually, I found it gave me peace of mind too.

Regarding the accuracy of tracklogs from GPS to GPS I was wondering about herd path formation as a result of the sharing of tracklogs. Of course this is a whole different topic from the OP. On a few of the ADK-HH trailless peaks there are incipient paths that have formed along final ridges near the summits but these are sketchy and IMO unrelated to tracklogs. But maybe there are less people doing those peaks than the NE-HH. (IIRC there are less than 100 finishers of the ADK-HH list, probably less than 75.)

 

[TCD]

Neil, it's funny that we are in such a similar place. I also would bushwhack alone, for years, and just leave my wife a map showing my intended route. Now I have purchased a Delorme Inreach SE, for much the same reason. I just activated it yesterday, and I'm going to test it out for tracking and text messages in the next few days.

 

[peakbagger]

IMHO, the tracking, "follow the beep" approach has led to an increase in establishment of heard paths. the 4K lists have been a normal stopping point for many in the past as bushwhacking and off trail navigation was skill many didnt learn. I have run into a new generation of folks that have transitioned to the 100 highest list that exclusively use GPS units following tracks either that they downloaded or laid them out on the computer before leaving home. In both cases they tend to do the "press on regardless" approach of staying on track where someone navigating the terrain will make a mid course correction and find a path of least resistance. I agree that there are points generally near the summits where the terrain leads to logical paths of least resistance that turn into herd paths.

Hard to make the call if the substantial hardening of herd paths is due to increased usage in general due to a lower skill level required or directly from the "follow the beep" approach.

 

[Neil]

I think there would have to be a lot of people doing the peaks for (obvious?) herd paths to develop. I have a favorite bushwhack that follows a broad ridge and have done it many times over the past 10-12 years. There is an incipient herd path that is intermittent and I often lose it or it just disappears and then I find it a little later. This path is in a state of equilibrium and it forms, gets erased by fresh blowdown and litter, gets going again elsewhere, gets erased again etc. etc. I haven't observed any hardening or increased definition over the years. The route ascends an outlier peak with killer views (but is not on any lists) and it links up to a 46er peak and a very well-defined herd path system. It seems that the "carrying capacity" of the woods on this lightly traveled route for resisting herd path formation is close to the limit.