It's debatable

[teejay]

or is it? The latest issue of Adirondack Explorer just arrived. Their feature "It's Debatable" pits James Close and peak_bgr to argue the question, "Should hikers be encouraged to climb the 100 Highest?" You might guess who's agin it and who's fer it. Unfortunately, it's not available online so you'll need to get a copy of it to read.

teejay

 

[Adk_dib]

Yea, I saw the article. Funnuy thing is, later in the magazine they were advertizing his book? I love to climb and I have no intention of doing most of the lower 54 (although I did buy the book ). I dont believe most people will do them either.

 

[albee]

I haven't read the article, but wouldn't you think that featuring a debate about the ADKHH list in a popular newsletter would raise awareness and hence encourage more people to consider hiking those peaks?

Thus, by even debating the subject more people will end up climbing those peaks.

Edit: (I was already planning to climb them, anyway!)

 

[Tim Seaver]

Mr. Close is also the one who, uh, "spearheaded", in his words, the effort to shut down the Great Adirondack Trail Run, despite the event having broad community based support. The mass pickets he envisioned never quite materialized.

Some people seem to love nothing more than dictating how people recreate.

 

[Explorer Editor]

If there are nonsubscribers who would like to read the debate (and book review) in full, just send me an email for a free copy of the Explorer.

[email protected]

 

[TCD]

I was holding off posting because I didn't want to edge toward the flame zone. I agree with posters here (and thanks, Phil, for the offer; Explorer is a cool publication!).

Certainly I agree with Tim. The end of the world did not come as a result of Trail Run, as one might have thought it would. In fact, the North trail to Giant is probably in better shape than ever after three years of this great charity event, and it's been a win for everyone involved.

The world will also not end as the result of a few more people visiting the other 54.

TCD

 

[Pig Pen]

Good luck getting people to not talk about stuff that they enjoy doing.

 

[mavs00]

I was holding off posting because I didn't want to edge toward the flame zone. I agree with posters here (and thanks, Phil, for the offer; Explorer is a cool publication!).

Certainly I agree with Tim. The end of the world did not come as a result of Trail Run, as one might have thought it would. In fact, the North trail to Giant is probably in better shape than ever after three years of this great charity event, and it's been a win for everyone involved.

The world will also not end as the result of a few more people visiting the other 54.

TCD

Educating, whilst we go about "doing what we do" is very important though. No cutting views, not alterations. Just a fellowship of folks that take joy recreating in this very special and unique resource.

If thats part of the equation then talking about, enjoying and sharing is perfectly acceptable. In fact, it's part of the beauty of it.

 

[una_dogger]

If thats part of the equation then talking about, enjoying and sharing is perfectly acceptable. In fact, it's part of the beauty of it.

Well put. I think we can relate our experiences in ways that will foster a greater appreciation as well as educate -- if we just keep trying we'll get there, just like we reach the summits. I'm pretty sure we all have been moved my the essays of naturalists; and our impressions and emotions when we are in the woods are in part shaped by them. We take that with us, internalize it, and it becomes a part of the overall experience. If we can bring that back with us, along with what the mountains have given us -- and share that through our own writing -- the more power to it.

We have a very unique and powerful means of communicating through the 'net. Write about someplace beautiful, challenging, powerful, untravelled--any and all of those things are going to inspire me and others to go there.

I think the responsibility we all share as those who love these places, whether we have seen them or aspire to go to them; is to keep nurturing the ethic of preservation in our writing.

Lets keep them special for all to enjoy. That challenge may be the biggest mountain we face as a society. The mountains don't belong to us, we are priveledged travellers there.

 

[HIATIS]

My 2 cents

It is hard for me to comment yet because Spencer and I have not seen the debate. Our copy has not yet arrived. I can say that Spencer was glad the Adirondack Explorer offered him the opportunity to represent his side of the debate. I would like to thank Phil B. for extending the courtesy. Ground rules were laid from the beginning and I am proud of my husband for sticking to the rules. I will reserve any further comment on that point until I see the debate first hand. But from feedback that I have been seeing I am assuming the "higher" ground was not taken by all parties involved. Enough said. In response to MAVS post about education- Spencer did address this issue in the draft I proof read. So, I assume it appears in print. Trust me so much could of been said but when you are limited to the number of words you are allowed, you do the best you can.

I come by my love of the woods naturally as it was passed along to me from my mother and father. For those of you who know Spencer and I our hearts are in the right place and that at the end of the day is what matters most, and that is the legacy I wish to pass along to my family.

I am looking forward to NH, see you soon.

 

[mavs00]

Maddi, I can certainly attest to the love of the woods from you're mom and dad. They are wonderful folks and my whole family has been lucky enough experience their "love of the woods" first hand. They are GREAT people. You and Bri do come by it honestly. Tell them we say hi.

As for the debate (which I've not seen, but have requested), it's not about personal feeling and personalities at this point. It really should not be anyway. Jim Close has every right to feel the way he does about not only this issue, but the trail running one. You (or I) may not like the way he articulates it, but he has that right. Spencer, has the right to publish his book, and articulate his feelings too.

The bottom line is that there are MANY concerned people that honestly fear what's going on and are voicing those fears as best they can. Spence (who I know) doesn't want these peaks destroyed any more then Jim Close does, and if you think that then you don't know the players. People are climbing these peaks, and the number is increasing, by the year. Nothing is going to change that at this point.

There is nothing wrong with discussing them, telling people they exist and have reasonable debates about how best to protect the fragile nature of them, both in the spiritual feelings they provide to individual climbers but also the physical protection of the ecological resource found on most of the summits (Spruce Slope - Mountain Borreal, which increased traffic will have a profound negative impact to). It's not about 1-2 folks tromping on a peak on a Saturday afternoon, it's about the collective impact of lots of folks over time.

So while we have our little debates on who is right or wrong, and what should we do, the traffic will continue unabated and the impact will continue until we (or the DEC) is forced to intervene (as on the trailess 46). There has to be some formal advocacy for these places, this treasured resource. The time has probably come for those that really care, to show some leadership and take steps to not only talk about, but dive into the hard issues that hiking these peaks entails. Property issues, unnatural summit alterations, herd paths formation and things of that nature. Until we do that, we are merely USERS of the resource, and nothing more.

You cannot unring a bell. Be it a book, be it a website, be it $200 GPS unit ( for easy navigation) or what. The why it's happening question is less important now than the WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT IT question.

That's my $.02

 

[Peakbagr]

Tim,

You missed Maddi's point, understandably as you haven't seen the Explorer article. I don't believe Maddi feels Close isn't entitled to his opinions, but she is politely saying Spencer stuck to the issues but the other side dragged in personalities and motives. No big surprise, but perhaps outside of the groundrules.

My family and a couple of friends read the article and to a person felt that both authors had a legitimate love and connection with the Lower 54, but that Close lost them and spoiled his message with its tone.

 

[mavs00]

Tim,

You missed Maddi's point, understandably as you haven't seen the Explorer article. I don't believe Maddi feels Close isn't entitled to his opinions, but she is politely saying Spencer stuck to the issues but the other side dragged in personalities and motives. No big surprise, but perhaps outside of the groundrules.

My family and a couple of friends read the article and to a person felt that both authors had a legitimate love and connection with the Lower 54, but that Close lost them and spoiled his message with its tone.

Actually, I didn't miss Maddi's point, cuz I wasn't speaking about the article or it's contents. I was talking in generalities. My point was (meant to be) greater then the debate itself. IMO, neither Spencer nor Jim is wrong, Neither are right either. Debate is fine, as long as action follows close behind. There is no action, or at least, very little action. AND THAT"S THE ISSUE.

...... and for the record, Jim's message is often spoiled by his tone. No great surprise there.

 

[Puma concolor]

I read the article the other night and I have to say that I enjoyed both sides of the debate as well as the review on "The Other 54." Good points made by both authors for sure. Perhaps it's because I don't feel as passionately about the list as some others but I can see it from both perspectives. It's a list that's interesting to me and the book gives some interesting ideas in terms of different hikes to take but this whole thing has gotten ridiculously devisive. I mean seriously - 40 or 50 people have completed the ADK HH and y'all seem to be at war with each other. Pretty silly, IMHO.

 

[Neil]

I mean seriously - 40 or 50 people have completed the ADK HH and y'all seem to be at war with each other. Pretty silly, IMHO.

Vigorous differences of opinion? You can count on that. War? Nevah.

Silly? IMHO, no.

Why, just the other day I gave Spencer some advice on which thong his dog Sunny should wear when he completes the HH list. Ever seen a pitbull sporting a thong? Only in the Dax.

(Spence, I may have misspelt your K-9's moniker, do correct this humble servant please if that's the case.)

 

[peak_bgr]

Why, just the other day I gave Spencer some advice on which thong his dog Sunny should wear when he completes the HH list. Ever seen a pitbull sporting a thong? Only in the Dax.

Actually I was thinking blaze orange because of hunting season coming up. But, you are the pro what do you think?

 

[Neil]

Actually I was thinking blaze orange because of hunting season coming up. But, you are the pro what do you think?

Blaze orange???

How could you? Sunny's color palate would never lend itself to reds or oranges.

I was thinking of either "yellow windowpane" or "robin egg blue ".

Unh, who gets the job of putting the thing on?

 

[mavs00]

Sunny, In a thong?

You both ought to be ashamed of yourselves for even discussing the matter. After all she's be through, if you put her in a tutu or something up on noonie, THEN we'll have some real issues and thing to "war" over.

I'll start in on Neil since it seems to have been his brain-child.

 

[HIATIS]

I have read the article

As for the debate (which I've not seen, but have requested), it's not about personal feeling and personalities at this point. It really should not be anyway.

Peakbagger(Moderator): Thanks so much for trying to direct MAVS to the point Iwas trying to make. But now that I have seen this debate first hand I will be happy to clarify on my own behalf.

MAVS: I am addressing your quote because you started that reply to me and my family and with your transition it seemed that you were making this reference to me. So here goes. I am well aware that the debate should not be about feelings and personalities. In fact that was a concern of mine from the moment I first learned of it. However Spencer assured me that there were guidelines to be followed within the debate itself. Case in point being no name calling and no finger pointing. So lo and behold I am a little taken aback that Jim Close deliberately chose to resort to such school yard behavior. I will give him credit though, he tried to disguise his bullying with BIG words. For those of you who have not read the article he insinuated outright by using the words cabal and hucksters that we are a conspiring cliche plotting in secret to harmfully peddle or sell shoddy goods. The point I was trying to make was, did the public understand that this was against the rules. The debate was susposed to be equal representation of two points of view. As it should be. Not an opportunity for an individual to take cheap shops in an attempt to make themselves look good by making someone else look bad. I know in his article Jim makes negative comments regarding the internet and hikers. However when he avails himself of this 21 century tool I hope he is not dismissive of my post. It would be very easy for any individual to just say yeah she's his wife so what? I do not usually take sides or post regarding my husband and his hiking. I am sure MAVS/Katie and Neil/Sylvie as well as many others can relate.

Also In my post I had wanted to let MAVS and Una_dogger know that Spencer had tried to address education. ", we must be good stewards of the mountains. This means don't cut trees to provide views, don't blaze trees or hang flagging, and if you see trash, carry it out. And to minimize the formation of herd paths, don't hike single file." and " Some friends and I have formed the Adirondack 100 Highest Organization, not only to share information about the peaks, but also to encourage their responsible use. We are creating an offshoot called Friends of the Adirondack 100 Highest to teach hikers about stewardship. Members need to live by the principle that hikers should minimize their impact on these peaks." These are just a couple of inserts from Spencer's side of the debate.

Have you noticed I still have not taken sides. I won't publically because I do not have the stamina to hike most of the "The Other 54" and I honestly believe the majority of the populus will fall into the same category as I.

I hope this post comes across as intended. I am trying to write in a hurry before heading off to church and while Spencer is not around because he really thinks I should not be "involved" in this debate. But as he should know better that anyone else when I want to say my 2 cents I say my 2 cents.

 

[mavs00]

Maddi, my apologies if you took my comments personally towards you, it wasn't intended. I probably should have left my comments to you out of that post (or put them out separately). My separate points (that followed) didn't really have much to do specifically with the article (that I haven't read) or even your post. I'm talking about the larger question of how to balance mass communication (such as a book, internet site, BB, ect...) and the sensitive nature of the issues facing climbers interested in hiking these peaks.

As for the article (that I haven't read). If rules weren't followed, or it got personal, well that's a shame. Kinda to be expected though with Jim . Look, I see things a lot clearer then you may think, I've had the ADK100 target on my back a hell of a lot longer then Spence. He's the target now and I know he knew it was coming. I agree with you, it's a real shame if things get ugly or if it descends to name-calling. Not only is it uncalled for and beneath you all, but it takes away from the legitimate issues. Puma is right that this is very divisive for those involved, but that doesn't mean that it's not worthy of discussion or that it's "silly". It's already cost me more then I care to discuss here, so I'd not classify it as silly.

On the bright side of all this, controversy sells...... so perhaps the publicity generated with the article could give a boost in sales for the book. Nothing wrong with that.



Ongoing education is very important, which we can agree on, RIGHT?. So here's a little more for everyone out there that interested (whether you want it or not )

http://adkhighpeaks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3860

This effects the peaks in the Fishing Brook Range, Cheney Cobble, N. River, Panther, Wolf Pond and Buell (among others). The Nature Conservancy is as serious about trespassing as Finch-Puryn was. I will be discussing the situation in the next day or two with the Nature Conservancy to get the most up-to-date information. I'll be sure to pass along any details I find out, as always.