Fisher Cat
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School cafeteria cabbage, and that was on a good day. In fairness it wasn't too bad in Jefferson as the wind blew, but crest Gorham Hill and...oh my,,,,,
The Info on Mt. Cabot
- Thread starter iagreewithjamie
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School cafeteria cabbage, and that was on a good day. In fairness it wasn't too bad in Jefferson as the wind blew, but crest Gorham Hill and...oh my,,,,,
I would rather drive through Berlin than a lot of places in MA. Btw, I was on the rail trail on the east side of the river a few weeks back and saw a bear hanging out on the trail about 1/4 mile ahead.
Tom_Murphy
Member
MORE DRIFT , sorry.
I was always told, "That's the smell of money, son".
Smells can have a strong memory association. That sulfur smell vividly reminds me of places I worked like Camas WA and International Falls MN.
I was always told, "That's the smell of money, son".
Smells can have a strong memory association. That sulfur smell vividly reminds me of places I worked like Camas WA and International Falls MN.
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Mike P.
Well-known member
I went up cabot once across Mr. Crane's land before it was closed. Honestly, it wasn't very scenic, only easier to get to from CT, and shorter. The other two approaches I've done (the Hatchery & from the north Mill Brook?) are much nicer and more scenic. A little longer perhaps but you get to see more of NH. Given a choice of mill towns or the shopping & congestion of North Conway, I'd pick mill town.
As far as the conflict with Mr. Crane, as others mentioned, why play ball with someone trying to apply pressure to change the rules for his interests when there are other ways to enjoy this scenery. Kudos to the USFS for standing their ground.
As far as the conflict with Mr. Crane, as others mentioned, why play ball with someone trying to apply pressure to change the rules for his interests when there are other ways to enjoy this scenery. Kudos to the USFS for standing their ground.
sierra
Well-known member
I still remember that smell, I spent a whole summer using the old " Bowman's Base camp", and Gorham was our town for that summer, mmmm rotten eggs, great for that hangover from the night before.
Jazzbo
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Update on Mount Cabot Trail closure
Recently (July 4, 2020) I wondered whatever happened to Mount Cabot Trail closure so I sent a message to WMNF via web page contact link to inquire. I received the following response message from Marianne Leberman (WMNF). Not much has changed I guess.
Thanks for your inquiry. The landowner opted to close his land to public use back in the early 2000s (It has been more than 10 years). It is still the same landowner. When the trail was closed the WMNF (along with other landowners in the area) looked for another option to reroute the trail. There wasn’t one as the landowner in which the Mt. Cabot trail crossed owns all the land in that area. It is unfortunate that the trail is not open to the public but we have to respect his decision. We do periodically check in with him to see if we can come to a resolution. This issue is still on our radar.
Recently (July 4, 2020) I wondered whatever happened to Mount Cabot Trail closure so I sent a message to WMNF via web page contact link to inquire. I received the following response message from Marianne Leberman (WMNF). Not much has changed I guess.
Thanks for your inquiry. The landowner opted to close his land to public use back in the early 2000s (It has been more than 10 years). It is still the same landowner. When the trail was closed the WMNF (along with other landowners in the area) looked for another option to reroute the trail. There wasn’t one as the landowner in which the Mt. Cabot trail crossed owns all the land in that area. It is unfortunate that the trail is not open to the public but we have to respect his decision. We do periodically check in with him to see if we can come to a resolution. This issue is still on our radar.
Salty
Active member
Thanks for the info, Jazzbo.
Sorta, kinda. There are two other landowners abutting the Forest in that immediate area (that I can see), one is on the north side of the trail, but access is through the closing party's land. There is one other at the end of Community Camp Road (shown as "Mt. Cabot" on Google) through a large parcel of town owned land onto another landowner. It would require a NE route, to avoid the closing party's private land, along Bone Brook then go easterly at least a mile to get to the old trail on USFS land, but the terrain does not look friendly, along with the FS is unlikely to incur that kind of expense, along with perhaps this other landowner may want nothing to do with it.
Sigh.
Sorta, kinda. There are two other landowners abutting the Forest in that immediate area (that I can see), one is on the north side of the trail, but access is through the closing party's land. There is one other at the end of Community Camp Road (shown as "Mt. Cabot" on Google) through a large parcel of town owned land onto another landowner. It would require a NE route, to avoid the closing party's private land, along Bone Brook then go easterly at least a mile to get to the old trail on USFS land, but the terrain does not look friendly, along with the FS is unlikely to incur that kind of expense, along with perhaps this other landowner may want nothing to do with it.
Sigh.
ChrisB
Well-known member
I still remember that smell, I spent a whole summer using the old " Bowman's Base camp", and Gorham was our town for that summer, mmmm rotten eggs, great for that hangover from the night before.
I remember well Berlin of the 70s. There were so many cars with ruined paint parked on the streets near the mill.
We frequently camped up high in the Northern Presis bagging peaks and we knew instantly when the wind shifted to out of the north east.
The problem is the AMC not the Landowner. Yet another example of their close minded attitude and elite exclusive mentality.
I have read (more than once, on this very thread, and elsewhere on this site) that it was the USFS not wanting to enforce the right-of-way they own for fear of harming other landowner relationships? (And that the landowner closed it out of spite because he couldn't get a right-of-way over USFS land for something else (maybe ATV or Sno-Mo)).
Tim
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Mike P.
Well-known member
It is his property and while I think BHSF has the basis of the facts right, at the end of the day it's his property.
I wouldn't really say it's anyone's fault, maybe the USFS, however, if he was trying to get some type of grant to allow motorized vehicles, this would have been the last three + years to work on that. I don't recall any Wilderness area in the area, is there any? It's just unfortunate, however, having gone up that route back in the 90's and having used two other routes, the others are nicer approaches, just harder to get to from the regular population centers.
I wouldn't really say it's anyone's fault, maybe the USFS, however, if he was trying to get some type of grant to allow motorized vehicles, this would have been the last three + years to work on that. I don't recall any Wilderness area in the area, is there any? It's just unfortunate, however, having gone up that route back in the 90's and having used two other routes, the others are nicer approaches, just harder to get to from the regular population centers.
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
Nothing new, same story as it was before. A member of VFTT at one point went to the Coos County Registry of Deeds and read the deeds and confirmed that the FS has a right of way. This is and was a strictly political decision by the USFS, they have the rights but they look at things differently than the general public, every decision they make is public and a employee who goes against the policy handed down in Washington is not a long term employee or should plan on being assigned to the least desirable postings in the FS. The "Wise Use movement" was big out west was and still is. Wise Use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wise_use_movement is always looking for PR opportunities to show perceived government abuse of private landowners. The current administration had proposed a Wise User to run the BLM and he has said in the past that the federal lands should be transferred to the states so they can give it to the users of the land. The FS also has far longer time span, they can wait out any individual. Presecriptive rights (AKA squatters rights) do not apply to government land, a private individual never gains rights unlike private lands. Therefore at any time be it now or a 100 years from now the FS can elect to use the right of way again.
When the issue first blew up the WMNF had numerous trailheads on private land with trails going through private land, they were all at risk if FS came down hard on the Mt Cabot trail landowner. About the same time I was on a confidential email list between the regional trail clubs and the FS. There was a long list of the trailheads on private land and there were plans to mitigate the risk for each one. In some cases it was abandonment. There was no interest in upsetting the "apple cart" for one trail that had an alternative trailhead. Some still are at peril but many have been mitigated. Some examples are the Castle Ravine and Castle Trail in Randolph (moved onto land purchased by a public land group and transferred to the USFS), Baldface Circle Trail (new parking and relocation to avoid some private property some of the trail is still on private property), Mt Meader trail, (relocation onto USFS land off private road). Moat Moutain trail, both ends, major relocations to USFS lands and numerous others. Despite having a right of way there is no space for trailhead parking at the former trailhead thus despite the obvious advantages of the trail to people from the south, it unlikely that the trail would be reopened until adequate parking is available. The neighbors will gladly tell you to just park on the side of the road and go hiking but they may be less interested in selling a parking lot. The FS is supposed upgrading the trailhead parking lots on York Pond Road which is federal land so not a lot of incentive to officially reopen the trail with landowner issues and no parking. The sign still remains at the junction with Bunnel Notch trail "Mt Cabot trail not maintained" Note its not closed its just not maintained, There is or was a similarly worded sign on the discontinued section of York Pond trail that formerly intersected the York Pond trail.
So as before folks can elect to go hiking across almost all of the WMNF without restrictions and can access the former trail if they wish, people do it in the winter and expect they do it in the summer.
When the issue first blew up the WMNF had numerous trailheads on private land with trails going through private land, they were all at risk if FS came down hard on the Mt Cabot trail landowner. About the same time I was on a confidential email list between the regional trail clubs and the FS. There was a long list of the trailheads on private land and there were plans to mitigate the risk for each one. In some cases it was abandonment. There was no interest in upsetting the "apple cart" for one trail that had an alternative trailhead. Some still are at peril but many have been mitigated. Some examples are the Castle Ravine and Castle Trail in Randolph (moved onto land purchased by a public land group and transferred to the USFS), Baldface Circle Trail (new parking and relocation to avoid some private property some of the trail is still on private property), Mt Meader trail, (relocation onto USFS land off private road). Moat Moutain trail, both ends, major relocations to USFS lands and numerous others. Despite having a right of way there is no space for trailhead parking at the former trailhead thus despite the obvious advantages of the trail to people from the south, it unlikely that the trail would be reopened until adequate parking is available. The neighbors will gladly tell you to just park on the side of the road and go hiking but they may be less interested in selling a parking lot. The FS is supposed upgrading the trailhead parking lots on York Pond Road which is federal land so not a lot of incentive to officially reopen the trail with landowner issues and no parking. The sign still remains at the junction with Bunnel Notch trail "Mt Cabot trail not maintained" Note its not closed its just not maintained, There is or was a similarly worded sign on the discontinued section of York Pond trail that formerly intersected the York Pond trail.
So as before folks can elect to go hiking across almost all of the WMNF without restrictions and can access the former trail if they wish, people do it in the winter and expect they do it in the summer.
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The OP states that the clash is with the AMC as they manage the land. Whether that is superseded by the USFS I do not know. IMO a snowmobile trail would be an excellent use of "The Land of Many Uses" mentality. Not to mention it would be paid for with private funds and then donated to the local municipality. Considering this is not an all year round use the windfall benefits to the entire outdoor community potentially could be positive. The Snowmobile Trail would probably run parallel and overlap the existing trail corridor. It could serve as an excellent conduit for continued trail maintenance. If it is The AMC that is making the final decision of this area's use then I personally find it contradictory to their own use of their Lyford Pond program. One can pay EXTRA in addition to other fees for the area to have one's gear transported via snowmobile in to the location. Therefore my comment of "close minded attitude and elite exclusive mentality".
JoshandBaron
Well-known member
Me's thinks the OP was mistaken in their assertion that the AMC was the agency responsible for the conflict. However, the AMC has always been a proponent of that area being managed as Wilderness.
Citation? I haven't heard of any efforts to designate the Kilkenny as Wilderness.
JoshandBaron
Well-known member
peakbagger
In Rembrance , July 2024
During one of the previous permit cycles, the intended "zoning" for the areas was dispersed non organized recreational area. This meant no trails but if someone wants to go in the woods and recreate they are welcome. I expect its the FS preferred designation as they can still cut trees and dont have to worry about buffer zones around trails or developments. I have never heard of a plan to go for a Kilkenny wilderness. Generally a wilderness area in this area is watershed controlled up to the natural boundaries (normally ridgeline). Look at Dry River, Great Gulf and Pemi, all water sheds. The Kilknenny watershed to the east,(Bog Dam Loop) has the Berlin municipal water supply dam and head gate equipment along with the fish hatchery. Arguably the Mill Brook Watershed or Pond of Safety would be more logical as there is no development except for FS roads and the rapidly growing in Pond of Safety improvements.
Note there are snowmobile trails in the WMNF and they can be permitted. Generally the permit process is ultimately decided by a few paid representatives of organizations that have enough funding to go through the fairly long process. I dont think the snowmobile clubs have that kind of support and I do not expect the owner of the land in question has them. I have attended public participation events for repermitting a couple of times and learned that the public input sessions are not worth much. Any specific projects tend to get weeded out in by the amalgamation process they use where the results of group focus session get edited down to one or two word phrases and they they are further edited down into summary's of individual sessions that are then edited down in future regional meetings. No doubt a land owner may attend a session and get some feedback from FS folks in attendance that its a good idea but that is quickly forgotten at the next session.
Note there are snowmobile trails in the WMNF and they can be permitted. Generally the permit process is ultimately decided by a few paid representatives of organizations that have enough funding to go through the fairly long process. I dont think the snowmobile clubs have that kind of support and I do not expect the owner of the land in question has them. I have attended public participation events for repermitting a couple of times and learned that the public input sessions are not worth much. Any specific projects tend to get weeded out in by the amalgamation process they use where the results of group focus session get edited down to one or two word phrases and they they are further edited down into summary's of individual sessions that are then edited down in future regional meetings. No doubt a land owner may attend a session and get some feedback from FS folks in attendance that its a good idea but that is quickly forgotten at the next session.
Managed is the key word here. Just exactly what the OP said. Managed by the AMC therefore needing their approval. The question is does the NFS have the ultimate jurisdiction. I would think so as they area Federal Agency overseeing Federal Lands. Where as The AMC is a non-profit whom is essentially sub-contracted on to do the managing. I think peakbagger’s second to last post probably sums up the situation best. Essentially the time, effort and money to sort out the quagmire of the ROW is just a waste of time and resources in what is probably a long to do list. Something tells me the AMC has still made their opinions to the NFS well known. The fact they removed the trailhead from their maps is enough for me to understand their point of view.
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JoshandBaron
Well-known member
In the linked report it is almost always brought up in the same breath as the Caribou-Speckled mtn region, which does not appear to use a watershed to determine its boundaries.
Very possible it was a consideration in 1983. Is it still on the table as a topic of discussion at this point 37 years later? Personally I haven’t heard any saber rattling by the AMC. Last I knew they were trying to build another Hut inside a State Park.
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